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PaulQ

Cat D insurers

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I'm sure I have been asked over the phone if the car has ever been written off. But never seen it on an online application form. Go figure.

A cat car shouldn't pose any higher risk that the clean title alternative. Only the driver/owner would pose a higher risk if the write off was during their ownership or fault. The only knock on effect a cat car itself may have is the pay out on a total loss theft/fire/damage due to its pre incident categorised title market value.

waffle waffle!

Edited by Jason986S

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3 hours ago, Araf said:

The BBC has not misinformed you.  They have reported a test case that puts the onus on the insurer to ask the question.  Since 2011 you are under no obligation to offer the information.  You were given a link to that information.  Simples. ;) 

Yes, I got it the first time Ian, but thanks anyway.

 

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The CAT vehicles on the road are many tens of thousands and are registered by the insurance database anyway - so all companies have this information just from the registration plate - computers link every application immediately - so that is known before they issue a quote - specifically asking the question is simply an integrity test.

Those selling CAT cars do state you should inform the insurance company, and it is true some insurers wont touch a CAT car - This market has formed because insurance companies are dishonest parasites.

CAT Ds are the result of insurance companies saving money - For instance - a vehicle sustains light damage - just the plastic bumper is damaged, but the car is three years old, Costs to repair are quite high as most bumpers are body coloured, one piece = so for a crack the whole thing has to be replaced, That entails the vehicle being off the road, Many insurers want car repairs done at their specified repairer as they have a special discount with them - so cars are queued for quite a time before they get in the bodyshop - In that time they may have to pay out for a hire car - expensive, loss adjusters are expensive too, so its easier to write the vehicle off and sell it back to the trade for 60% of its value. The insurer then makes you an offer - always a low one because people don't tend to refuse - they moan about the settlement but rarely fight - so its a big win for insurance.

They know the vehicle will be put back on the road - and once again they get a policy to insure it - but, as its CAT D the value - or risk to them is insignificant but the premium remains the same as if it was a non CAT car. The real bonus is that insurer's also raise the premium for both drivers irrespective of who was at fault  - but cunningly advertise that you keep your NCB, creating the impression you wont loose out - they do not state your premium wouldn't rise though.

Then the crafty gits start the personal injury phonecalls - more or less encouraging false claims with statements that you could receive over £3000 for your accident - and of course the in house legal teams also get paid by the at fault insurer.

They used to sell their accident claim details to law firms a few years ago but the law changed and banned the practice - so they took over ailing legal firms - at a good price and made them "In house"

In 2012 Admiral made 18 million just by selling accident details to law firms, when the law changed they formed their partnership with Lyons Davidson.

I change my insurance every year - usually the lowest cost, I'm in that sector that want to be legal, If they don't pay out when needed then quite happy to take them to court for breach of contract or unfair contract terms, negligence - indeed whatever I can throw at them.

Its quite ironic that we have to deal with scheming dishonest, greedy slime balls in order to remain within the law.

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1 hour ago, Glyn said:

The CAT vehicles on the road are many tens of thousands and are registered by the insurance database anyway - so all companies have this information just from the registration plate - computers link every application immediately - so that is known before they issue a quote - specifically asking the question is simply an integrity test.

So, you don't tell them (coz they don't ask) yet you know that company X doesn't insure Cat cars.

Yet they will still take your money and give your a certificate, even though they know its on the database and they wont insure it, but they have.

Perfect :)

 

Edited by PaulQ

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My insurance co will insure CAT D cars, as I've asked the question in the recent past. They made it clear that they will only pay out about 60% of the market value of the car from the outset, which was fine by me, as that is all the car would have stood me. I'm still repairing the car ( 12k mile 2010 Gen 2 Boxster 3.4 Tip), and have probably already sold it to a friend, so I'm not likely to have to bother insuring it myself, but at least I know it's possible.

The insurance co is called Pace Ward, their number is 01782 286311. I've been with them for about 8 years, and find them accommodating and competitive. I have a multicar policy with them covering a Lexus , my works van, my much modified Evo and my 3.2S 987. I pay £1400 for all 4 fully comp.

Try them for the Cat car, they will be happy to quote.

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I've never had a CAT car and I have never specifically been asked the question by any insurer - however, I suspect the question would be asked if the car was a registered CAT - and this way they check your integrity. No way of checking their integrity though I suspect they would all fail that test. Perhaps when seeking a new insurer we should pose the question that with a protected policy if my car was for instance bumped into in a car park and I wasn't with the vehicle at the time but the other driver had left contact details (I know this is probably remote as most would drive off hoping they wasn't seen) could they confirm my NCB wouldn't be affected - and when they tell you it would remain intact then ask specifically will my premium rise ----- and wait for their answer.

The reason it would be pertinent would be two fold - insurance is there to indemnify you in the event of sustaining damage, in a no blame case then the claim against the at fault driver will have to be increased to cover those damages (A monetary value above 1p) for the duration the insurance company would raise your premium - so if your premium rose by £30 a year for three years then an additional £90 would have to be claimed off the other driver.

Secondly - the minor scrape when a claim is submitted could result in the car being made a CAT vehicle - if you chose to keep the vehicle and had it repaired your claim against the other driver would have to be increased to compensate for the loss of value of the vehicle

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7 hours ago, Glyn said:

I've never had a CAT car and I have never specifically been asked the question by any insurer - however, I suspect the question would be asked if the car was a registered CAT -

I've never been asked.

Guy I chatted with today who worked in insurance said they don't show up on the system either when inputting data for a quote.

Edited by PaulQ

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That's interesting regarding details are stored in databases, because I can prove the opposite, recently tried as an exercise with we steal any cars .com. I put the details in without mentioning it was Cat D and was offered £5.7 K, filled it out again and this time mentioning it was Cat D and quote came back at £3.8K!!!!. If the data is stored surely they should know it's Cat D ?.

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56 minutes ago, bally4563 said:

That's interesting regarding details are stored in databases, because I can prove the opposite, recently tried as an exercise with we steal any cars .com. I put the details in without mentioning it was Cat D and was offered £5.7 K, filled it out again and this time mentioning it was Cat D and quote came back at £3.8K!!!!. If the data is stored surely they should know it's Cat D ?.

Probably just a business decision to wait until you're further into the process before checking the database and giving you the bad news. WBAC were always going to check the database before handing over £5.7k or else it would be a good way of making money by buying Cat cars from the classified and selling to WBAC.

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1 hour ago, bally4563 said:

That's interesting regarding details are stored in databases, because I can prove the opposite, recently tried as an exercise with we steal any cars .com. I put the details in without mentioning it was Cat D and was offered £5.7 K, filled it out again and this time mentioning it was Cat D and quote came back at £3.8K!!!!. If the data is stored surely they should know it's Cat D ?.

Interesting that their pricing differential is exactly one third...

This is perhaps an indicative answer to the common 'how much less should this car be because it's on V-Car' query?

 

Cheers, Baggers.

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3 minutes ago, bagss2 said:

Interesting that their pricing differential is exactly one third...

This is perhaps an indicative answer to the common 'how much less should this car be because it's on V-Car' query?

Cheers, Baggers.

Yes, and that is how much cheaper they are in the trade, but people always think they have a bargain when they are paying 20% below book for one.  It only works if you're sure you are keeping it long-term.

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Just to wrap this one up, Aviva wouldn't budge on the price.

Their renewal quote didn't include legal cover, but the guy on the phone said it did, so took that off and saved £56. Sorted.

 

 

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My ex had a Punto that got driven into.  Rang her insurance for her, and they said it had been a write off previously (cat C from memory), but they didn't really care and just adjusted for value.

You can only find out if a car is Cat C/D from a vehicle check.  Absolutely no chance whatsoever that an insurance company would be given any credibility in court if they refused to honour an insurance policy based on this, as it's not something that an owner can be reasonably expected to know.   Possible, yes, but expected?  No.

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I hear what your saying, but I think most people would tell their insurance company if they knew their car was a cat c/d.

Same with declaring modifications/factory options etc. Its all well and good pleading ignorance, but who wants the

potential hassle come claim time ? Not me.

 

 

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10 hours ago, PaulQ said:

I hear what your saying, but I think most people would tell their insurance company if they knew their car was a cat c/d.

Same with declaring modifications/factory options etc. Its all well and good pleading ignorance, but who wants the

potential hassle come claim time ? Not me

It isn't hassle.

Scenario:

Insurer "Hi, why didn't you tell us your car was a Category D repaired insurance write off?"

Driver "I don't know what the hell you are talking about"

Insurer "Your car was previously a Category D total loss and you didn't tell us"

Driver "How am I supposed to know that?"

 

Wouldn't have any legs in court if the issuer tried to refuse a claim, as there would be substantial reasonable doubt.

 I imagine a court would ask why the insurer didn't know from there outset, as it is information they had access to at the point of taking a premium.

 

Completely unrelated to modifications, as we're talking and something that an insurer knows more about than the average driver.

 

Beyond this, I've never known an insurer to care, probably due to the above. If it was a factor, it would either be a question on the online form, or they would have an API to check this during the process (like Auto trader do)

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6 minutes ago, cj225 said:

I've never known an insurer to care, probably due to the above. If it was a factor, it would either be a question on the online form, or they would have an API to check this during the process (like Auto trader do)

If they don't care, then why do so many insurers decline to cover you once you tell them the car is a cat c/d ?

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1 hour ago, PaulQ said:

If they don't care, then why do so many insurers decline to cover you once you tell them the car is a cat c/d ?

I think you're missing the main point here -  nothing to do with whether you volunteer the information, but an insurance could not (legally, I expect) refuse to cover a Category write-off car in the event of a claim if it wasn't disclosed at the point where the policy was sold, especially if it wasn't explicitly stated in the schedule of cover.  You'll find a statement about modifications, but nothing at all about previous status of the car on the ABI register.

They, as a member of the ABI, would know and have access to this information at point of sale, so a court would simply state that they had knowingly mis-sold an insurance policy and they'd be fined quite a few pounds for this.

You could buy a policy online, and it wouldn't ask.  You would receive the insurance schedule and it would not (certainly that I've ever seen) ask nor make any statements related to this subject, and therefore you have bought a valid insurance policy and entered into a contract with the insurer.

The fact that an insurer declines cover can be down to a number of reasons, including poor staff training (seen it first hand).   If you wanted to be honest and tell a person on the phone or in person whilst obtaining a quote, then feel free.  It's not different, in my opinion, to not getting a job because you told the person interviewing you that you were incontinent.  

I'd have to say "have you ever been asked?" and subsequently, "what do they say when you say 'How am I supposed to know that?'".   

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1 hour ago, cj225 said:

If you wanted to be honest and tell a person on the phone or in person whilst obtaining a quote, then feel free. 

Yes I do. Now you'll say I'm too honest, but that's just me.

You and others choose not too. That's fine.

Edited by PaulQ

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1 minute ago, PaulQ said:

Yes I do. Now you'll say I'm too honest, but that's just me.

You and others would be happy to withhold the information. Your choice.

 

Not at all - if you withhold, you refuse to provide.  You can't withhold if you're not asked to provide.  

 

Have you ever been asked?  I never have (nor have I insured one)

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Just now, PaulQ said:

Nope, don't remember ever being asked.

I don't see how it could ever be an issue for anyone then, unless they willingly volunteered something that the insurer did not request.  

It's like them saying they wouldn't pay out because they don't cover cars with yellow magic trees - if it was critical, they would be asking for this information, no?

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This is an interesting thread, with many opinions and ideas. I would like to answer the questions asked, I will say however my answers only apply to the Insurers we deal with here at A-Plan. I cannot comment on aggregator websites terms, conditions or requirements.  

Most of our Insurers will cover a Cat D or a Cat C write off.

When a vehicle is written off the insurer at the time of total loss would have destroyed the log book. The owner of the vehicle that retained the salvage would have had to request a new log book from DVLA, to re-register the vehicle with DVLA as a Cat C or D. (https://www.gov.uk/scrapped-and-written-off-vehicles/insurance-writeoffs)

They aren’t necessarily a higher risk, they are a lower value compared to the normal market value of a vehicle that hasn’t been in an accident. For instance body work doesn’t need to be repaired if it doesn’t affect the driving/ safety of the vehicle, but the dents would de value the car.

‘Insurance is set up on a basis of utmost good faith, which is a duty to voluntarily disclose, accurately and fully, all facts material to the risk being proposed, whether requested or not.’ (2016-2017 CII Insurance Legal and Regulatory)

Legally if the insured is in breach of the above statement, the insurer may void the policy from the start, so no Insurance would be in force and therefore no claim would be paid. Misrepresentation is taken very seriously, if the insurer finds the non-disclosure is fraudulent they can void the policy from inception. If the misrepresentation is deemed a reasonable mistake then the Insurers will pay a claim, either way it would be investigated.

The moral of the story is if you know it’s a Cat C or D, or anything else that might effect the policy, just tell your insurance company. If you have a policy voided its much harder to get insurance than it is to insure a Cat C or D.

Thanks

Clare

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