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Nelton94

Potentially bought a lemon v2

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Sorry gents reposting original thread below as I included my address before 

Gents, 

 

you may remember a few weeks ago I posted in the buy/sell advice thread that I was looking at buying a late 986 S. I indeed did this having test driven a few, the car initially felt tight and healthy to drive however it developed a ticking noise this weekend at low revs and idle which it did not do on the test drive. I drove the car up north and have put about 700 miles on it since I bought it but figured the tick was bad enough to warrant inspection (which I wish I’d done before I bought it) at Porchetech in Finchley. 
 

they have sent through the below which they estimate will be about £2-3k of work. It looks like when the exhaust was replaced the guy did a botch job which is causing a lot of the below issues. He says he will look at the attached come over and help me put right some of these issues but obviously the man has gone down in my estimations of trustworthiness considerably considering all of this. I think my options are A) fix everything, b) fix what needs doing or just sell the car and cut my losses. I really like the car and I know these cars will cost me money in the long-term so I am kind of leaning towards option b) as then I know what’s been done and what hasn’t. Advice would much appreciated! PS the garage inspection fee is already £120+VAT :(

Just looks like general old car problems to be honest.

How much did you pay for it, and did you buy it from a private guy or a dealer? 

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There are a few worrying jobs on there for sure. But some of then may not be quite as bad as they sound. For example, why is the cylinder leaking? Mine had a very slight leak due to just needing new coil packs which wasnt too bad a job. 

The brakes and control arms are just wear and tear. Needs a bit more investigation I think. 

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GmanB   

GmanB

Have they even stated what is causing the ticking noise? There doesn't seem anything in that list that could cause ticking while idle?!

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Menoporsche   

Menoporsche
   1 hour ago,  RobScott said: 

Just looks like general old car problems to be honest.

+1.  Nothing in there that any 986 buyer hasn't found, it's a 15 year old car and apparently wasn't worshipped by previous owners - this is not a rare occurrence.

Not sure about that leaking cylinder thing though.  (The other leak sounds like RMS, "they all do that sir").

Aftermarket exhaust manifolds, and badly drilled out bolts, is also common sadly.

We always say be prepared for up to 2k in the first year, this is why.

Go for your option b.

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mike597   

mike597

Doesn't look at bad as all that.  Several of these are very common concerns on 986s and certainly not terminal. 

Porsche tech aren't known for being the most pragmatic of places.  You might do better with a more realistic assessment from an indy that understands the difference between critical maintenence and saving it for later. 

Disks and pad no biggie. Drive shafts neither.  Rebuilding the exhaust is time consuming but you really need to know if any of it needs replacing now or soon. To be honest you don't need to pay porsche indy rates for that... Its just an exhaust. 

Oil leaks might need investigating or monitoring a pragmatic indy would advise. 

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edc   

edc

Does it have a fresh MOT? If the exhaust leaks were that bad the CEL would come on and you'd probably fail the MOT emissions. But otherwise there is nothing too bad there that you would t expect to see on an older car. 

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Tubzilla   

Tubzilla

All seems a bit vague especially form a Porsche specialist. Is your car manual or auto. Surely a decent specialist would know wether that is a reverse switch even i could tell you that.

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mike597   

mike597

Battery easy fix, control arms easy as well will need alignment. Bump stops are common issue and can last for ages or be replaced up to you. 

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map   

map

From my perspective this it what jumps out at me....

4. Oil leak from cylinder head on idle - could this be a mis-seating of the the pipe that surround the spark plugs/coil packs as already suggested by @Hit The North - easy fix if it is - regardless this isn't helpful feedback.

5. Could this be oil travelling from 7.?

6. Am no expert but if I'd paid one to produce this report I'd expect the expert to know what the plug is that they're referencing in 6 - did they even check to see if the reverse lights are working to validate/exclude that?

9. Non-N Rated tyres - I notice they don't comment that they're out of spec, worn or aged.....

Exhaust - OK someone's messed up putting the manifold on - I think there are differences between 2.5 and 2.7/3.2 bolt patterns which could be the root cause of this.  Do you really need a whole new system?  Manifolds/Cats etc - I very much doubt it - manifolds sure and there are plenty of folk on here who've fitted after market versions who can point you in the right direction in terms of fitment, cost and suppliers.

Have you tried the roof on the car?  Does it fold away and unfold without any drama or noise? 

Frankly you seem really pleased with the car and aside from the ticking haven't referenced any other noises or oddities. With this in mind take the report, absorb everyone's feedback on here and see what priorities experienced owners give you from that list and then take the car somewhere else for a second opinion - let people know which town you're close to and you'll get plenty of solid recommendations from the forum on that score.

 

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mike597   

mike597

I think with the build quality and the classic design it's easy to forget these cars are pushing twenty years old often.  What other twenty year old car would not have issues? 

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RobScott   

RobScott
   1 hour ago,  mike597 said: 

I think with the build quality and the classic design it's easy to forget these cars are pushing twenty years old often.  What other twenty year old car would not have issues? 

totally agree.  most cars at 20 years old are in cubes!

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Tubzilla   

Tubzilla

Not sure a gearbox rebuild is correct for an oil leak its usually the RMS which most people live with. Second opinion needed and check out any advisories on the mot.

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edc   

edc
   56 minutes ago,  Tubzilla said: 

Not sure a gearbox rebuild is correct for an oil leak its usually the RMS which most people live with. Second opinion needed and check out any advisories on the mot.

Definitely need to determine source of gearbox leak. If the casing is cracked can it be repaired in situ? How bad is the leak and can you get away with just topping up the gearbox oil? If the casing is cracked and unrepairable then consider second hand box rather than rebuild as probably cheaper. 

The fact that word rebuild is used suggests the casing is fine as a standard rebuild is the internals. 

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s3swiss   

s3swiss

By the way - did you mean to publish your full address? (page 2 of the invoice)... 

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edc   

edc
   51 minutes ago,  s3swiss said: 

By the way - did you mean to publish your full address? (page 2 of the invoice)... 

That's the garage address. 

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stevemag   

stevemag

Whether you have a "lemon" really depends on Whatyou have paid for the car.

I'd be "hissed off"at £7,000 BUT not surprised by the list on a £3k car.

Most of the list is jobs for the future maintenance 

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red rocket   

red rocket

Alot of sound advice and wisdom above from experienced owners. Most of these things appear to be a relatively easy fix so would go down that route. Good luck!

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Nelton94   

Nelton94
   1 hour ago,  RobScott said: 

Just looks like general old car problems to be honest.

How much did you pay for it, and did you buy it from a private guy or a dealer? 

Bought it for £6.4k had done 82 now almost 83k miles. Bought from private seller but he has said he will come and put the car right and we have had quite a long chat so think the garage may be exaggerating the issues tbh. Had another chat with them and they suggested each manifold is 2hr labour at £120 p/h and that only the passenger side one is leaking a little. He then said if they take it off and the bolts have damaged the engine then that could be a full engine rebuild - £5-6k labour plus parts! Which is why unsurprisingly I am going to collect the car.

 

   1 hour ago,  GmanB said: 

Have they even stated what is causing the ticking noise? There doesn't seem anything in that list that could cause ticking while idle?!

They seem to think exhaust blowing is the issue. Engine seems solid which I agree with as gave it a sprited drive this weekend and last...!

 

   1 hour ago,  edc said: 

Does it have a fresh MOT? If the exhaust leaks were that bad the CEL would come on and you'd probably fail the MOT emissions. But otherwise there is nothing too bad there that you would t expect to see on an older car. 

Again yes. Seller has spoken to the MOT guy and he is really surprised by all this, said quote is this the same car.... in  fairness the exhaust leaks may not be as serious as suggested. I’ll get some pictures when I go back to Hampstead and let you all know. Should have said I know about this already. It’s a manual and the seller was waiting on a part to arrive to come over and fix it. 

   1 hour ago,  mike597 said: 

Battery easy fix, control arms easy as well will need alignment. Bump stops are common issue and can last for ages or be replaced up to you. 

good to know as I will probably do this all another time! Is it doable myself?

 

   1 hour ago,  map said: 

From my perspective this it what jumps out at me....

4. Oil leak from cylinder head on idle - could this be a mis-seating of the the pipe that surround the spark plugs/coil packs as already suggested by @Hit The North - easy fix if it is - regardless this isn't helpful feedback.

5. Could this be oil travelling from 7.?

6. Am no expert but if I'd paid one to produce this report I'd expect the expert to know what the plug is that they're referencing in 6 - did they even check to see if the reverse lights are working to validate/exclude that?

9. Non-N Rated tyres - I notice they don't comment that they're out of spec, worn or aged.....

Exhaust - OK someone's messed up putting the manifold on - I think there are differences between 2.5 and 2.7/3.2 bolt patterns which could be the root cause of this.  Do you really need a whole new system?  Manifolds/Cats etc - I very much doubt it - manifolds sure and there are plenty of folk on here who've fitted after market versions who can point you in the right direction in terms of fitment, cost and suppliers.

Have you tried the roof on the car?  Does it fold away and unfold without any drama or noise? 

Frankly you seem really pleased with the car and aside from the ticking haven't referenced any other noises or oddities. With this in mind take the report, absorb everyone's feedback on here and see what priorities experienced owners give you from that list and then take the car somewhere else for a second opinion - let people know which town you're close to and you'll get plenty of solid recommendations from the forum on that score.

 

4. Ok good to know. I was thinking of replacing all coils and plugs when I have a spare weekend as doesn’t look impossible to do with the right tools and a bit of patience!!

5 good point. Is 7 easy to fix or a garage job?

6 is literally missing the switch lol! The lights are also not in the bulbs as we took them out as it was stuck on 

9 tyres are continentals. Will replace when worn but seem good for now!

 

roof works a treat and yes exhaust seems to be the main worrying issue. I’m in North London so any tips of where to get this stuff properly checked over would be appreciated as I don’t want to sell the car for a loss and am happy spending the money getting it fixed as it is not a complete basket case as they suggest and I am rather fond of it!

 

mike597   

mike597

This might help :

 

I've got plenty of good things to say about Jaz St Albans which is an easy drive from you. 

 

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½cwt   

½cwt

I got my 90k mile 2000 S on September '18. According to documents in the history and my more recent experience it has had about 80% of this list in one form or another if not exactly over the last 5 years. Get the urgent ones done like brakes and oil leaks at least looked at and enjoy the car. It is old and will take some money to maintain, not just servicing on long intervals like new cars.

 

My main issue would be that the source of the ticking has not been identified.

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C416DEE4-BE28-4032-BE85-1DE1AED0BD5D.jpeg

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6 minutes ago, Nelton94 said:

Sorry that formatting is horrid! 

Might have been be better to ask @Araf to edit the original post to remove the address

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Sorry I panicked! Been a day full of surprises! Will let you know how I get on collecting the car

9 minutes ago, Gutley said:

Might have been be better to ask @Araf to edit the original post to remove the address

 

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It all depends how much you like the car and what difference a couple of thousand pounds hit makes to you life. It’s going to cost you one way or another if you fix it or sell it and you need to decide where you head is at. If you fix it you have a sorted car  if you don’t but still want to, it’s going to cost you ,ore!

I impulsively bought a TR6 once. Completely mugged by the owner and in the 1st couple of weeks I thought I was going to get my breakdown cover cancelled. I was fortunate that I had some funds to fix it but after a month when the fuel injection stopped working and I changed the fuel pump on the road outside, depositing a pint of petrol into my lap and having one of the mot painful experiences of my life, I shut the lid and left it there. I sold it to a trader over the phone within 30 minutes. It cost me a bit but life is too short sometimes!

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If the seller is willing to put things right get them involved regardless of your feelings - then see what is left to do, come to an agreement with him/her and if its satisfactory move on by either keeping or selling - we invest too much time in the blame game when actually the solution is there in front of you. 

IMO walk away from the current garage and have another inspection done - then compare and discuss with previous owner - don't feel like you've bought a lemon, it's a car and one that can be repaired between the 2 of you and get you smiling again!

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As Apollo has said, I don't think you should "lose trust" in the seller and personally (assuming it was a private sale), I think he/she is being quite decent in offering to help. Ultimately when you buy a used car (and especially one that is 15+ years old) you have to expect to remedy some faults. It's annoying but I think it's kind of par for the course.

The only thing on that list that would actually annoy me is the badly drilled manifold bolts and the only reason it would annoy me is that it is a sh1tty job to correct. I certainly wouldn't hold any ill will against the previous owner for not getting it right (I'd sympathise with him!). The rest of the jobs are things which you can either do yourself (ie. cleaning drains, plugging the temp sensor back in, drying out the headlights), things I'd not really worry about (cracked bump stops on a 15 year old car), or things that any competent DIYer or specialist can do for a reasonable cost (suspension arms).

I'd treat any old car purchase as a rolling restoration and I think that's probably the best way to look at this one.

 

 

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The current garage sound like drama queens. Rather than giving pragmatic advice, it is coming across as 'we're all doomed' so it's difficult to tell what serious and what's not. I would seriously think about taking a trip up north to an Indy with a more reasonable labour rate and ask them to sort the pressing issues. It's difficult to tell from that report what the issues really are as if the inspector isn't a Porsche specialist, as anyone familiar with these cars should be able to identify the common RMS seal issue and narrow down the cylinder head leak.

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I wonder if the "leaking cylinder head" is actually just a knackered spark plug tube (or several).

Reading the report, it feels strange that this has come from what appears to be a bonafide Porsche specialist. A lot of it is quite vague and the problems described feel like things that any competent mechanic familiar with Porsche should be able to diagnose more accurately. It reads to me more like the kind of report you would get from a general garage.

 

 

Edited by Lennym1984

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Thanks for the advice all! Have walked away from the garage as they simply can’t give me a proper idea of what the issue is and how bad it is until they take off the exhaust manifold, they say if the bolts have then damaged the cylinder head then that’s where the astronomical fees come from. They are certain the noise is coming from the “blowing exhaust” and the engine is responsive  so they did say if you can live with the noise it won’t blow up on me.

The very helpful mechanic said he will send me some photos of where the exhaust holes are (seems back exhaust box is quite corroded as are the exhaust exit pipes - sorry if I’m using all the wrong terminology) the damaged flange etc so I will share those when I get them. 

My next port of action is to meet up with the seller and see what he can do to fix it which he has offered to do. I do appreciate him being a nice person and not washing his hands with me and I think we can work together to get it rectified. If that works maybe I enjoy the car for 6 months and see where my head is at, if I then decide to cut my losses and sell then fine or I can decide to plough some more money in to fix all the consumables that need doing, or I can figure out how to fix them with you guys! I’ll keep you all informed. 

 

I will also try my hand at another recommended specialist as one in Finchley is hardly likely to be affordable....!

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3 minutes ago, Lennym1984 said:

I wonder if the "leaking cylinder head" is actually just a knackered spark plug tube (or several).

Reading the report, it feels strange that this has come from what appears to be a bonafide Porsche specialist. A lot of it is quite vague and the problems described feel like things that any competent mechanic familiar with Porsche should be able to diagnose more accurately. It reads to me more like the kind of report you would get from a general garage.

 

 

That’s my thinking. I’ll replace all the plugs and coils as I don’t think they have been done for 30k miles! I could have paid another £40 for a quote of all work needed doing but that inspection doesn’t exactly give me confidence in them. Also £120 for the inspection and that seems steep already. Few alarm bells tbh with the garage. However a lot of lovely 993s knocking about!

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It seems unusual to pay a garage for a quote no?

If it is leaking from the spark plug tubes, you will need to buy replacement tubes/seals. You can get them off ebay (aftermarket) pretty cheaply and I never had any issues with the ones I bought. Look at the Pelican Parts website for a guide. Once again, this is a really common issue and not somethhing I'd lose any sleep over (it's literally a little plastic sleeve with some o-rings that needs to be replaced)

Where are you based?

 

 

 

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£40 for a quote? Any garage that wants your business don't charge for a quote... walk away... 

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5 minutes ago, GmanB said:

£40 for a quote? Any garage that wants your business don't charge for a quote... walk away... 

He has not paid for a quote, he has paid for a full and detailed inspection and this is exactly what he got

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To be fair when I get invoices or quotes for work on an Indy headed paper the description is brief. But I will get or have a call to discuss the detail and the plan of action. 

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@TROOPER88 he said here about the option to pay extra for a quote.

19 minutes ago, Nelton94 said:

 I could have paid another £40 for a quote of all work needed doing but that inspection doesn’t exactly give me confidence in them.

 

 

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Why would you pay for a quote after paying for an inspection?

The work required is identified during the inspection, the garage should be able to give a quote without any extra charge.

 

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3 minutes ago, Lennym1984 said:

@TROOPER88 he said here about the option to pay extra for a quote.

 

 

I read that but have a feeling that it is not accurate

 

At the end of the day, these cars are circa 20 years old, Porsche servicing costs have not come down over that period. 

Anyone buying a 986 MUST do their homework and carry out their own checks.

There is a lot of work on that list even if you just do the basics.

The oil leaks 'could be this' or 'could be that' but none of us have seen the car in question.

ALL of the 986's I sell have not only been inspected by Porsche but I also then carry out all of the necessary work and if one were to pay a garage to do this work the bill would me many thousands. 

Paul 

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17 minutes ago, Lennym1984 said:

It seems unusual to pay a garage for a quote no?

If it is leaking from the spark plug tubes, you will need to buy replacement tubes/seals. You can get them off ebay (aftermarket) pretty cheaply and I never had any issues with the ones I bought. Look at the Pelican Parts website for a guide. Once again, this is a really common issue and not somethhing I'd lose any sleep over (it's literally a little plastic sleeve with some o-rings that needs to be replaced)

Where are you based?

 

 

 

Based in north London. Judging from what they have said about the exhaust I’m pretty certain that is an issue that needs to be addressed pretty soon which I will do with the seller. 

 

1 minute ago, Scubaregs said:

Why would you pay for a quote after paying for an inspection?

The work required is identified during the inspection, the garage should be able to give a quote without any extra charge.

 

I do agree. But the owner acted like she was doing me a favour by not charging £165 (+VAT) and they gave me a lot of info on the car verbally which I have tried to share. They also said they can do a plan for me but ultimately it is 4hrs labour to do both manifolds and then they will see it the engine has been damaged when the manifold had been attached. This is my fear and if I want to proceed then costs etc can be worked out.  Manifolds themselves look shiny tbh! I’ve sent them a chaser on photos. 

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Reading again about the badly drilled manifolds, it's not clear to me if the problem is with the block or the cats. The latter is presumably cheaper.

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1 minute ago, Menoporsche said:

Reading again about the badly drilled manifolds, it's not clear to me if the problem is with the block or the cats. The latter is presumably cheaper.

Yes I think this is where the discrepancy from the garage is. It’s either just an exhaust replacement so £1k (labour and parts) or engine is effed and they have to take it out and charge me £8k lol (I laugh otherwise I’d cry)

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Screwing up the block is close to normal for exhaust bolts, the word helicoil has been used here several times. Of course it will depend on your particular situation.

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3 minutes ago, Menoporsche said:

Screwing up the block is close to normal for exhaust bolts, the word helicoil has been used here several times. Of course it will depend on your particular situation.

The helicoil I assume would repair the broken thread (if the thread is broken...!)

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7 minutes ago, Nelton94 said:

The helicoil I assume would repair the broken thread (if the thread is broken...!)

Yes.

Doing this to the heads of the engine with the engine in situ would not be possible surely. 

I think it is far more likely that the damage has occurred where the manifold meets the cats on each side. Post the pics when you get them

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New quote has landed for the exhaust change. Now it’ll be £2.4k for a whole new system (non-Porsche) and about £600 for labour if it’s a simple job. Porsche classic quoted £7k for a new exhaust without oxygen sensors. Surely that is ludicrous!

 

43A284B7-0BBE-47BE-B5CC-57A80BF2FC41.jpeg

Edited by Nelton94

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