Insurance, when you have extra's

[Guest]

I have consulted a lawyer friend on this and he agrees that I should be fine. The point he makes is that elephant say if you are unsure to ask your garage...well I have documented evidence from the garage that the car is not modified. Also I have declared the full value of the car (including options), which alone should cover any claim I make.

The lawyer also said there is a difference between a "base" car and a "standard" car...as my car is as it left the factory Porsche classify this as the "standard" spec for my car, hence why they are happy to put it in writing that it's not modified.

I believe in the maserati case you are talking about, the ICE upgrade was an after-factory modification, which does have to be declared.

Also, my brother trashed a brand-new MR2 roadster a couple of years ago, had loads of options in it, was declared as a "standard" car, elephant had no problems replacing the car in full, including options (as they were factory fit).

My final argument would be that I received the original quote from elephant via confused.com, and they state "These are any changes that have been made to the car since it was made, this would include such things as: alloy wheels / spoilers / engine modifications." As elephant are effectively using confused.com as an authorised agent, then I can go by this definition of modified.

Anyway, hopefully it never comes to this point with them, but I feel sufficiently confident in my arguments.

[felix66]

Hi Greig

in the intersests of fully informing the forum for people to make their own decision with as much information as possible, i have one or two observations for you.

The terms standard car and base car have long confused people but the well established legal precedent is that 'a standard vehicle is one which has no addiditonal options, instruments or modifications supplied and/or fitted' (case law established this in the late 60's). Mid 70's saw a minor accepted amendment refering to base level being an accepted trim level leaving the factory. Standard being the term applied to different trim levels - each leaving the factory without further modification or additional options. Elephant do NOT differentiate between additions at the factory or post production. This is clear in their policies.

having studied the case papers for the mas case - the situation is that the offending item was in respect of sat/nav which was factory fitted as an option (at build). he had not told them of this original factory upgrade when he insured the vehicle. The vehicle was regarded as modified from the standard trim level and his claim was rejected after a court case - costs awarded against him.

In respect of valuations, you will no doubt have found the wonderful quotes in the small print (standard with most insurance policies) - you can tell them the car is worth £3m if you like - you wont get that if you claim. You will get the market value of the car at the point of the claim. You will not necessarily get the costs of any options (in fact with elephant you will NOT get the cost of any options included within the claimed amount - ie someone nicks your wheels and they were fatory fitted 18" sport designs and you will get paid out an amount equal to the cost of the standard fcatory fit alloy). Some insurance companies will pay out based upon what is called an agreed amount valuation - usual with collectors/classic cars - you need to foot the bill for the valuation every year and they need to agree with you that is the amount they will pay out. So if glasses says your car is worth 30K - thats what you will get - even if you paid 40K for the thing. (this month's In search of excellence magazine has an article about a poor sod who insured his car for $35K and got $25k paid out)

Confused.com - yep these guys don't really help matters but if you check their small print (T&Cs) on their website it actually makes it clear - "It is very important that you answer all questions truthfully and that you disclose all relevant facts. If you do not provide your insurer with the information they have asked for or fail to tell them about any change (for example, any information likely to influence the assessment of your risk) it could invalidate your insurance. If you are in any doubt whether any information is relevant, you should tell your proposed insurance provider before you accept their quotation."

As your legal counsel will explain - the last line is their getout clause. The courts would almost certainly say you should have confirmed the situation with the insurer - not the agent (the agents liability does not extend to you in cases of information you are required to provide the insurer with - in this case since the elephant documentation provides a differing intrpretation, it supercedes the confused intrpretation of modified.)

Whatever is, or is not the case, I think leaving it to be challenged in court is a high risk strategy. I appreciate your brother trashed his MR2 and had a full pay out but on the basis of what happened to the mas owner and the fcat that I have already confirmed all this with elephant I would suggest its too high a risk - if (heaven forbid) I suffer a total lost - I want a pay out.

Felix

[alanm_3]

After careful consideration I decided to come clean with Directline and spill the beans on my "non-standard" car and shock-horror, it didn't make any difference to my premium

They will issue a new certificate with the "modifications" on it . This will include "upgraded alloy wheels fitted to a new car", the leather interior and also have noted other FF options such as OBC, PSM Litronic etc in the notes section on my policy details.

Feel better now, I couldn't imagine the worst happening and then being compounded by on vastly reduced payout.

Who says honesty doesn't pay?

[Guest]

Felix,

Surely I am covered solely by Elephant's large-print statement:

"If you are uncertain whether your car is modified or not, please check with your local garage."

I have a written statement from the garage stating "The car is not modified".

Would this not be the case?

Greig...

[felix66]

Hi Greig -

I think there are two things you have to consider. The first is that modification usually applies to 'further modification'. i.e. whilst under your owenrship (you change the wheels or add a spoiler).

The second is that because elephant include options as modification of a standard trim level you will have a difficult time arguing that these are not modifications over the standard car. Using elephants interpretation, the OPC would be unwise to tell you have an unmodified car and their legal defence would be that you didn't explain to them that the insurer in this case views all options over a standard level of trim as modifications.

Because you will have a maintenance book and a sticker under the bonnet of the car detailing all of your chosen options (each of which adds value and cost to the cars purchase price) it would be virtually impossible for you to state you complied with the T&Cs of elephants cover.

Not all insurers are the same and many if not most see factory fitted options as items which increase the value of the car but not necessarily the premium. In elephants case they are stating that these items make the car more desirable and therefore more at risk - as such they normally levy an increase in premium.

My own 'S' has around £12Ks worth of options - this drove up my premium with a (hardly noticeable) £70. AlanM's insurer, directline didn't increase his premium once he disclosed the options.

In your case I suspect that if you didn't disclose the options and you claimed, they will be within their rights to say you witheld information impacting their assessment of the risk. That being the case they may reject your claim by invalidating your insurance. Your only recourse then would be to revert to the OPC that signed a statement making it clear your car was standard (check the wording - it must say your car is standard - it is not acceptable to have something which states your car has not been modified since leaving the factory - these are two different states - remember a standard S is the one you can get for £38K - you will not see many of those on the road!)

hope this helps

Felix

[Guest]

Thanks felix...given me enought doubt to phone an press elephant for a decision.

So after discussing the points, I reminded them that in my original quote I asked about this point and at that time I was told that if the dealer said it was unmodified, then it was unmodified.....this call-taker had a different opinion, after some debate, he admitted I had come clean and that they could have "been clearer" about their definition.....they took a note of my "extras" and included them on the policy...no extra charge (for this year)....I'm sure it will result in an increased premium next year, but won't be insuring with them anyway due to their "only repair to base spec" policy.

so fully covered, no extra charge, feel good

[felix66]

Good result - like you I will be avoiding them next year due to the repair/replace to base policy - I want the car returned to the condition it was in before any incident took place.

Felix

[Guest]

I want the car returned to the condition it was in before any incident took place.

yes, wonder if we could sue them for calling it "Comprehensive" insurance

[lgf]

I have had to make a claim a few weeks ago as someone drove into me requiring the rear bumper to be replaced. The claim is being held up by Royal & Sun Alliance underwriters whilst they investigate the 'modifications' to my car. I only have factory-fit options but they need to have them checked by their technical team.

It just seems daft as nobody buys a base spec Boxster. I even had to declare the floor mats to my insurer. Luckily they were okay about the air freshener!

[Nobby]

I have recently made a 45K claim with Tesco after a rolled my "S" and comprehensively wrote it off . I had a full pay out even though I hadn't specified factory fit options when I took the policy out. I did however send them the original copy of the order form so that they had the spec of the car on their files. Didn't make any difference to the premium.

Now I have a 996 again insured with Tesco, this time the car wasn't new. The OPC had retro fitted a sports exhaust and gt3 body kit for the previous owner, they consider this to be an unmodified car and have provided me with an official signed letter stating this along with the complete spec of the car at the time I purchased it. I have sent a copy of this to the insurer again to keep on their files should there be a dispute in the event of a claim.