IMS bearing

[Nellyans]

Hi I’m knew to the forum....so be kind I know this topic is old but im considering the pelican update kit or do I just change the bearing? Do I need all the seals and bits my car 2002 2.7 80k miles full history owned for 8 years oil changes every 3k please any info I’m more than capable to do the job as I’m an engine builder For a major company by trade

[Nobbie]

This is a useful read

Your standard bearing has lasted 80k, so I don't see any reason a replacement shouldn't last as long. Any signs of oil leaks from the bell housing? Can being either RMS or IMS seals. If I was worried about it, I'd take the gearbox off and inspect it carefully first to decide whether there were any signs of failure and replace if there were. If there are no signs of the seal leaking, I'd be wary of messing with it in case I introduced a weak point by fitting a new bearing slightly wrong. At 80k it would probably be worth changing the clutch if it's still on the original one while the gearbox is off. Not sure what you mean by "all the seals" 

Try a search on IMS, there may be one or two threads on here?

[Nellyans]

Hi thanks for replying yes original clutch and yes new clutch if mine is worn and I have a SKF bearing double 3204 A-RS1TN9/MT33 and single FAG bearing 6204-C-2HRS just to be sure...ready to do the job as i can’t see why I would need to change bolts etc The pelican kit has some rubber seals with it in addition to new bolts for the IMS cover that’s all what do you think

[Nobbie]

Not familiar with the Pelican kit and can't really advise any further, hopefully someone with a bit more specific knowledge will be along soon?

[Nellyans]

Good read

 

[Nellyans]

Ok just don’t think you need to change all these bits unless failed I have the bearings...maybe just the engineer in me over thinking things.

[edc]

@T24RES has used the Pelican kit. 

[mikefocke]

Two choices come to mind ...

- There have been observed failures in the parts supplied/upgraded in the IMS kits particularly by people who have seen hundreds or maybe thousands of these engines and documented the modes of failure.

- The parts are there to increase profits

Your choice, your risk.

 

 

 

[Nellyans]

Thanks for the reply and yes why would you replace a part that’s not damaged anyway wish me luck bearing being done next weekend all being along with clutch if needed?

[T24RES]

 

 

 

 

 

This is part of the pelican kit. The bolt is different (stronger - app this can be a weak point), as such the other parts are required to cater for the improved part.

The Bearing isn't the only part upgraded in the kit.

[Nellyans]

Ok I have a few bearing SKF and FAG 6204 and both double and single race. 

Could update to a double race if mine had a single?

Also what make bearing does the pelican kit use?

[Nellyans]

1 hour ago, T24RES said:

 

 

 

 

 

This is part of the pelican kit. The bolt is different (stronger - app this can be a weak point), as such the other parts are required to cater for the improved part.

The Bearing isn't the only part upgraded in the kit.

The bolt stronger? Is it a 10.9 strength opposed to the 8.9?

[T24RES]

Google the difference.

[TomGW]

22 hours ago, Nellyans said:

Ok I have a few bearing SKF and FAG 6204 and both double and single race. 

Could update to a double race if mine had a single?

Also what make bearing does the pelican kit use?

You can't simply replace the single race bearing with a double race, as the outer plate / holder is different.

 

On 10/1/2017 at 7:53 AM, Nellyans said:

Thanks for the reply and yes why would you replace a part that’s not damaged anyway wish me luck bearing being done next weekend all being along with clutch if needed?

Waiting until it fails isn't an option, unless you want to replace/rebuild the whole engine.

I have recently bought a 2003, 2.7 with 48,500 miles. The car has been very well maintained and shows no sign of any oil leak from either the IMS or the RMS, so all good at the moment. From the service records it's still on the original IMS bearing. Obviously mine will have a single race bearing and, as I intend to keep this car as a long term summer drive, I want to take reasonable precautions. My car has been properly serviced and maintained, with oil changes every 3000 miles for the past 20,000. The engine seems to be in very fine fettle, but I'm conscious that it falls into the higher risk IMS category, as it is a single race bearing, with lower mileage/usage than average and not driven hard by the previous two owners who are known to me. Consequently, I have been considering the options.

One option that I haven't seen discussed is to retrofit the dual race into the later car. This would involve, at least, fitting the OEM dual race bearing together with the appropriate outer flange/holder. Is this possible? What other parts would be needed? If my car was fitted with a dual race bearing, like the early 2.5, the statistical failure rate would be reduced from 8% to 1%, which, in addition to knowing that the bearing was brand new would be very reassuring.

On this theme, could the Direct Oil Feed (DOF) kit for a dual race engine be fitted to the later car, together with a new dual race bearing?

[K.I.T.T.]

There's more than just the bearing carrier / plate that's different.

Roller chain type IMS drive vs tooth drive chain. Probably more differences.

It's not feasible to swap from OEM single to OEM dual IMSB. 

[Nellyans]

57 minutes ago, TomGW said:

You can't simply replace the single race bearing with a double race, as the outer plate / holder is different.

 

Waiting until it fails isn't an option, unless you want to replace/rebuild the whole engine.

I have recently bought a 2003, 2.7 with 48,500 miles. The car has been very well maintained and shows no sign of any oil leak from either the IMS or the RMS, so all good at the moment. From the service records it's still on the original IMS bearing. Obviously mine will have a single race bearing and, as I intend to keep this car as a long term summer drive, I want to take reasonable precautions. My car has been properly serviced and maintained, with oil changes every 3000 miles for the past 20,000. The engine seems to be in very fine fettle, but I'm conscious that it falls into the higher risk IMS category, as it is a single race bearing, with lower mileage/usage than average and not driven hard by the previous two owners who are known to me. Consequently, I have been considering the options.

One option that I haven't seen discussed is to retrofit the dual race into the later car. This would involve, at least, fitting the OEM dual race bearing together with the appropriate outer flange/holder. Is this possible? What other parts would be needed? If my car was fitted with a dual race bearing, like the early 2.5, the statistical failure rate would be reduced from 8% to 1%, which, in addition to knowing that the bearing was brand new would be very reassuring.

On this theme, could the Direct Oil Feed (DOF) kit for a dual race engine be fitted to the later car, together with a new dual race bearing?

Single it is then

[K.I.T.T.]

Depending on who you speak to, people advise that removing and replacing an otherwise good bearing with a like for like new bearing can stress / damage the crankcase. Barry from Hartech seems to be of this opinion, whist some other specialists are more than happy to do so.

A lot of interesting reading on t'interweb.

[TomGW]

1 hour ago, K.I.T.T. said:

Depending on who you speak to, people advise that removing and replacing an otherwise good bearing with a like for like new bearing can stress / damage the crankcase. Barry from Hartech seems to be of this opinion, whist some other specialists are more than happy to do so.

A lot of interesting reading on t'interweb.

I've read Barry's (Hartech) view on this and it makes a lot of sense. However, if I understand it correctly he seems to consider that there's a greater likelihood of damage when removing the double race bearing. The problem is, we have no sure way of knowing what condition the existing bearing is in and how close it may be to imploding. The presence of debris in the oil and filter is a clear indicator that there is an imminent problem, but the absence of such debris at an oil change does not guarantee that all is well. After all, I have no way of knowing if the seal has already come off and the plastic bits dumped at a previous oil change.

If my engine had 100k on it, or had a poor service record, I may be more inclined to simply keep up a good regime of oil changes and hope for the best. However, with only 48k and a minty car I am much more inclined to spend a reasonable amount to protect it as much as practicable. If I could be certain that the existing bearing was still unworn and undamaged I would seriously consider the DOF solution, which would involve removing the outer seal and supplying oil directly into the bearing.

[K.I.T.T.]

What's this race bearing? Never heard of it.

Allegedly, stock (OE, OEM or aftermarket) replacement dual row IMS bearings are NLA which can make things tricky.

My dual row IMSB was in good fettle after 116k and was left alone. They look at the condition by removing a seal and looking at the ball bearings. The seal was simply replaced.

If a clutch change is imminent and you have a single row IMSB, it may be worth investing in an aftermarket upgrade if you want reassurance. 

Having said that, your engine may fail from something else. Look at what happened to Jason's 3.2.

I'm of the train of thought that the IMSB issue is somewhat blown out of proportion. Then again, I wouldn't purchase a car that I knew was guaranteed to have a single row bearing. I'd look at early cars or a 987.2 / 997.2. That's me though...

[mikefocke]

LN does provide a replacement of the single row with a double row bearing. Called the single row pro and requires a special tool set (which, while expensive, can be easily sold after its use as there is a ready market).

Figuring out what parts to spend money on for preventative maintenance can be a challenge as the statistics just aren't there to guide us beyond the about 1% per year failure rate of the Porsche supplied metal single row.

[Nellyans]

Just to follow on and update on a new post I fed in my IMS all done and great running ceramic hybrid SKF bearing full service aswell also RMS done new clutch and DMS all good and lots of other bits for my old girl seems ok ? 

[niceone]

what is the cost difference between the different bearings ?

[Nellyans]

Hi cost wise I can only comment on my research that I did mine was a single race the NSK oe bearings that I removed from my car was still intact and altho the seals were looking ok the grease had started to wash out. These are under £10 to buy unfortunately Porsche have a license on this bearing but you can get them the ceramic bearing with all the proper properties mine being SKF hybrid aren’t cheap are around £85 direct from SKF. There’s lots of bearing out there that are suitable and I do know of people using just standard 6204 bearing in there cars with no problems the IMS issue I believe is  blown out of proportion good service intervals good oil used that said there are failures for what ever reason.And if like most you cherish your car it’s worth changing if your unsure on the history I have owned my Boxster for 12 years and my friend owned before that so I do know the history I did mine as my clutch and DMS needed changing my cars done 80k now.

[niceone]

what do the lm cost 

[edc]

Hard to compare like for like as LN comes in a kit. Do a quick Google search and it's £530 on Design911. Most of the cost is in the labour.