Araf Posted April 23, 2018 Report Share Posted April 23, 2018 I've seen a GT3 have a blow out on a rear 888R and get written off by a tyre wall on a track day. Not sure if having the engine at the rear overloaded the tyre or whether there was other unseen damage before the event but in extreme conditions I prefer to have the tried and tested option. Besides, the difference in price between N and non-N is of often negligible when comparing like for like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911-32 Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 16 hours ago, Araf said: I've seen a GT3 have a blow out on a rear 888R and get written off by a tyre wall on a track day. Not sure if having the engine at the rear overloaded the tyre or whether there was other unseen damage before the event but in extreme conditions I prefer to have the tried and tested option. That has nothing to do with N and non-N. You are mistaking correlation with causation. There are many factors that are far more likely to be the cause than the fact that 888Rs are non-N. Lets not even start on the fact that 888Rs are a far more track appropriate tyre for a GT3 than any of the usual N rated options (unless Cup2s are available for that vintage GT3). I don't care what people choose to use for tyres, but find it remarkable how blinkered people can be around the N rated propaganda. Read the facts (not baseless opinion) and make your own mind up. None of us are driving 300mph hypercars requiring tyres made of unicorn poo. In some instances N-rated is the perfect choice, in others a budget tyre is the right choice or indeed a track tyre. Depends on your criteria. Ignoring the really cheap Chinese stuff, the big EU, Japanese, Korean brands do not make bad tyres in their performance/max-performance ranges and technology does move very fast, making a 10+ yr old design generally quite out of date. Why do you think Nurburgring lap times keep falling dramatically year after year when the cars barely change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Inkpen Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 Ya canny whack a set of GoWind run flats, 60 quid a corner for my Cooper S. Tyre fitter had never heard of them. (nearly bent his tyre pry bar getting them on) Lots of torque steer, sh**e milage, but boy do they grip. The Chinese are coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araf Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 5 hours ago, 911-32 said: That has nothing to do with N and non-N. You are mistaking correlation with causation. There are many factors that are far more likely to be the cause than the fact that 888Rs are non-N. Lets not even start on the fact that 888Rs are a far more track appropriate tyre for a GT3 than any of the usual N rated options (unless Cup2s are available for that vintage GT3). I don't care what people choose to use for tyres, but find it remarkable how blinkered people can be around the N rated propaganda. Read the facts (not baseless opinion) and make your own mind up. None of us are driving 300mph hypercars requiring tyres made of unicorn poo. In some instances N-rated is the perfect choice, in others a budget tyre is the right choice or indeed a track tyre. Depends on your criteria. Ignoring the really cheap Chinese stuff, the big EU, Japanese, Korean brands do not make bad tyres in their performance/max-performance ranges and technology does move very fast, making a 10+ yr old design generally quite out of date. Why do you think Nurburgring lap times keep falling dramatically year after year when the cars barely change? I knew I shouldn't write about the GT3. Rather than rubbishing the 888R tyre (which I have always found very good on track) I was merely trying to point out that it was an additional variable that could not be discounted from the list of possible reasons for the accident. If the driver was using them over approved PS Cups because they were cheaper, it COULD have been a false economy. We will never know. I didn't even note the load ratings on the Toyos so the driver may have made an incorrect choice from the manufacturer. I've used both Porsche rated and non-Porsche rated tyres on Porsches and the fact that I'm still here to tell the tale is due to the integrity of all tyres, not just luck. I currently choose to use the N rated tyres as it suits my needs (Porsche warranty predominantly) and the cost difference between PS4 for example with and without Porsche approval is negligible. I've had tyres on cars in the past that have been badly matched to that car (for whatever reason) and to then spend an additional £600 on another set is not a favourite pastime of mine. The reassurance of a tyre that the car's manufacture says works on your car is worth the extra £40 a set (IMHO). In the days before the internet, I used to contact the R&D departments of tyre manufacturers about which tyres would work best from their range, on bikes that I had at the time. Some of their recommendations were options that I would never of considered, but they worked very well. Rather than blinkered, look on it as me not thinking that I know better than the hundreds of thousands spent by professionals in order for me not to make the same mistake as I have previously. For the record, my go-to tyre for other vehicles is the Uniroyal Rainsport series. Soft sidewalls but they have worked very well on all cars I have tried them on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911-32 Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 I get it and I am not being critical of you. I would just note that N rating seems to be equated as "the best", but it isn't. Technology moves on - a Contisport 6 is much better than an N rated Contisport 2 in all measurable variables and industry tests. Likewise PS4S vs PS2. No question if its PS2 N vs PS2 and its only £40 difference, for sure take advantage of whatever magic has been applied to the N-rated tyre. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nath Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 4 hours ago, Araf said: the cost difference between PS4 for example with and without Porsche approval is negligible Are these available to fit the 987.2 S? I just checked the Michelin site and couldn't find a match for mine (19's), best it could manage was the PS2's. Or do they make it in the right size but not rated for the Gen 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araf Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 3 hours ago, 911-32 said: I would just note that N rating seems to be equated as "the best", but it isn't. Technology moves on - a Contisport 6 is much better than an N rated Contisport 2 in all measurable variables and industry tests. Likewise PS4S vs PS2. No question if its PS2 N vs PS2 and its only £40 difference, for sure take advantage of whatever magic has been applied to the N-rated tyre. We're singing from the same song sheet. Maybe I should have expanded on my original post at the expense of speed, but I think the subsequent conversation has given all a better insight than either of us would have given in a single post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araf Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 6 minutes ago, Nath said: Are these available to fit the 987.2 S? I just checked the Michelin site and couldn't find a match for mine (19's), best it could manage was the PS2's. Or do they make it in the right size but not rated for the Gen 2? No idea as I'm on 17s. I'll have a look around.... 235/35 and 265/35 IIRC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulQ Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 10 hours ago, 911-32 said: Ignoring the really cheap Chinese stuff, the big EU, Japanese, Korean brands do not make bad tyres in their performance/max-performance ranges and technology does move very fast. Some of the newer Chinese tyres are very good too. Gone are the days of them being made of plastic. I've currently got a cheapo deep dish steering wheel on the box and for the money it's great. I'm guessing those tasty looking seats you've just bought are manufactured in China..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araf Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 19 minutes ago, Nath said: Are these available to fit the 987.2 S? I just checked the Michelin site and couldn't find a match for mine (19's), best it could manage was the PS2's. Or do they make it in the right size but not rated for the Gen 2? Looks like the only tyres in Boxster sizes are PS2s all around or PS Cup 2s for the front and PSS for the rear. Looking on Camskill, if I was looking for non-N rated tyres in 19" then the Uniroyal Rainsports are half of the money of Michelins. Michelin own Uniroyal and Kleber and Tigar, if you want a couple more budget makes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoporsche Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 It was the case that Goodyears were 2/3 the price of the Michelins. Haven't looked recently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911-32 Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 2 hours ago, Araf said: Looks like the only tyres in Boxster sizes are PS2s all around or PS Cup 2s for the front and PSS for the rear. Looking on Camskill, if I was looking for non-N rated tyres in 19" then the Uniroyal Rainsports are half of the money of Michelins. Michelin own Uniroyal and Kleber and Tigar, if you want a couple more budget makes. Look on Tyreleader - both 235/35-19 and 265/35-19 available in 4S and PSS flavours. Agree on your other comment that good info have been provided Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911-32 Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 2 hours ago, PaulQ said: I'm guessing those tasty looking seats you've just bought are manufactured in China..... Corbeau is a UK company, but the manufacturing could be anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araf Posted April 24, 2018 Report Share Posted April 24, 2018 The Chinese can make very good products. Honest. The problem is Eastern philosophy and Western greed. If someone gives them an expensive product and asks them to make it for half the price, they will. It will look identical but it won't last/work as well. If you complain, they will say that they did what you asked. If you then say "Can you make it work as well as the original and last as long?" they will say "Yes, but not for the same money." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Inkpen Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 11 hours ago, Araf said: The Chinese can make very good products. Honest. The problem is Eastern philosophy and Western greed. If someone gives them an expensive product and asks them to make it for half the price, they will. It will look identical but it won't last/work as well. If you complain, they will say that they did what you asked. If you then say "Can you make it work as well as the original and last as long?" they will say "Yes, but not for the same money." Thats correct Araf and do be fair to this brand GoWind, a pot hole destroyed one of my rims on the journey back home from the highlands. Tyre had been flat for over 100 miles and we got home with no issue whatsoever. So maybe slight loss of wet grip compared to big brands, but dry grip is as good as anything I have had on a mini. Good value tyres and safety not an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911-32 Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 5 hours ago, Graham Inkpen said: GoWind... <snipped>...So maybe slight loss of wet grip compared to big brands, but dry grip is as good as anything I have had on a mini. Good value tyres and safety not an issue. I like to be contrary and I was a big advocate of an open mind on tyres and not falling into the n-rated propaganda, but lets be realistic here. The cheap, budget - mainly Chinese - tyres are not lethal and driven with a modicum of respect will do exactly what they ought to do - keep all four corners of the car on the road for a bargain price. However, to characterise wet grip as a slight loss and dry grip is as good as anything is over egging it. Check out any of the objective industry tests and compare wet and dry stopping distances, wet and dry handling track times etc. Bargain tyres perform significantly worse than best in class. This is why they are cheap. They may still be the right tyre for you, but lets be honest about what you are buying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Inkpen Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 1 hour ago, 911-32 said: I like to be contrary and I was a big advocate of an open mind on tyres and not falling into the n-rated propaganda, but lets be realistic here. The cheap, budget - mainly Chinese - tyres are not lethal and driven with a modicum of respect will do exactly what they ought to do - keep all four corners of the car on the road for a bargain price. However, to characterise wet grip as a slight loss and dry grip is as good as anything is over egging it. Check out any of the objective industry tests and compare wet and dry stopping distances, wet and dry handling track times etc. Bargain tyres perform significantly worse than best in class. This is why they are cheap. They may still be the right tyre for you, but lets be honest about what you are buying. Well we are not talking about fitting them to a Porsche. Ok they might be a few meters more stop in the wet but let’s face it if your having to stamp on breaks in the wet at speed then I reckon it’s asking for trouble with any tyre. I certainly would not advocate them for track work. I have had no wet grip issue with them at all and every out in a car is spirited in my case. But as I said they are fitted to a mini not a Porsche. As for industry standards, well Volkswagen are good at that. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulQ Posted April 25, 2018 Report Share Posted April 25, 2018 4 hours ago, 911-32 said: Check out any of the objective industry tests and compare wet and dry stopping distances, wet and dry handling track times etc. Bargain tyres perform significantly worse than best in class. Sure, but many established more costly brands such as Yokohama, Vredestein, Nokia etc don't fare so well either, and can have longer braking distances then some of the cheapo Chinese tyres. Spending more money on premium tyre make doesnt necessarily mean it will perform any better then a budget one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911-32 Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 15 hours ago, Graham Inkpen said: Well we are not talking about fitting them to a Porsche. Ok they might be a few meters more stop in the wet but let’s face it if your having to stamp on breaks in the wet at speed then I reckon it’s asking for trouble with any tyre. I certainly would not advocate them for track work. I have had no wet grip issue with them at all and every out in a car is spirited in my case. But as I said they are fitted to a mini not a Porsche. As for industry standards, well Volkswagen are good at that. ? You get the point though, right? Bargain or cheap tyres - Chinese or otherwise - are not going to perform as well as the best in class. Doesn't matter what you are putting them on. Your argument seems to be that they are fine in your experience, and that is totally valid, but it doesn't make them as good as the class leaders - the tests in places like Evo, Tirerack etc tell us that. If your point is more about VFM, then I agree you can make that case, but you seem to be arguing they perform just as well, which is clearly wrong (and which what why I replied in the first place). 12 hours ago, PaulQ said: Sure, but many established more costly brands such as Yokohama, Vredestein, Nokia etc don't fare so well either, and can have longer braking distances then some of the cheapo Chinese tyres. Spending more money on premium tyre make doesnt necessarily mean it will perform any better then a budget one. Exactly - just spending money doesn't guarantee a better tyre. But looking at the test results pretty much does and I have never seen the bargain tyres come anywhere other than overwhelmingly in last place. Finally, I apologise for allowing myself to get sucked into a tyre discussion and rereading my posts also apologies if they came across as personal or dogmatic - my intention was to be informative and objective. We probably in reality all have opinions that are not far apart - we own Boxsters for a start - so I hope we are all still friends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulQ Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 12 minutes ago, 911-32 said: But looking at the test results pretty much does and I have never seen the bargain tyres come anywhere other than overwhelmingly in last place. I don't know what tests you are looking at, but check out some of the Auto Bild ones, and you will be very surprised at the results as I pointed out above. 25 minutes ago, 911-32 said: Finally, I apologise for allowing myself to get sucked into a tyre discussion and rereading my posts also apologies if they came across as personal or dogmatic - my intention was to be informative No need to apologise. Tis only bits of rubber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911-32 Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 I am Newbie here! In other places I am used to being more of an "expert". A dose of humility is a good thing. And as you say, tis only bits of rubber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Inkpen Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 911-32, I think the point I was trying to make is you can get really good performance from a cheap tyre, however I did say they don't last very long. the fronts take no time at all to wear.Also being run flats they do have a stiff side wall which may be leading me into a false sense of security. I also have no clue how they would stack up on long fast runs on German roads. INMO I think the gap between named brands and unknown is maybe less than I imagined in the past. It carrys over to many products this debate. We are so brand central and bombarded with advertising from the companys that can afford the glitzy adds. I am guilty of this with my Porsche. The thing is most folk will never stretch the true adhesion limits of the cars we drive on public roads. Too many fecking potholes for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoporsche Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 1 hour ago, PaulQ said: No need to apologise. Tis only bits of rubber That line didn’t work with my girlfriend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulQ Posted April 26, 2018 Report Share Posted April 26, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce2018 Posted April 30, 2018 Report Share Posted April 30, 2018 On 24 April 2018 at 10:20 PM, 911-32 said: Look on Tyreleader - both 235/35-19 and 265/35-19 available in 4S and PSS flavours. Agree on your other comment that good info have been provided Be careful buying from Tyre bleeder the tyres I got from them were according to the DOT reading 4 years old, ad they charged me to return them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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