usman10316 Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 27 minutes ago, topradio said: What's the difference? bogus is bogus. Or there acceptable levels of bogus? Its just an admission by someone on the program that I'm interested in reading that's all... no big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glosrich Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 As others have said, I'd be looking for a good used box to swap into it. Its not really good to be spending £3k on rebuild on a car that old, and that may be the tip of the iceberg. Its a Merc box isnt it? Its usually just the valve body that needs changing, and a proper oil filter change including the torque convertor oil also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveEFI Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 17 minutes ago, Glosrich said: As others have said, I'd be looking for a good used box to swap into it. Its not really good to be spending £3k on rebuild on a car that old, and that may be the tip of the iceberg. Its a Merc box isnt it? Its usually just the valve body that needs changing, and a proper oil filter change including the torque convertor oil also. It's a ZF 5HP and shared by many others including BMW. All autos have a series of clutches which wear out eventually. Same as any clutch. I've not had a ZF box apart, but have overhauled both B-W and GM types. You can usually buy an overhaul kit with all the wearing parts and gaskets, etc. It's a very satisfying job, and no more difficult than the work many DIY on engines. And often easier than a manual gearbox repair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin450 Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 On 1/19/2020 at 9:18 PM, Freeman said: Kevin450 I am so happy to hear from you although not happy that you also have to spend time and effort. I hope to finish work tomorrow early enough so I can go and check with a specialist, just like you, I have also questioning the idea of a faulty gearbox. Please keep me posted and I will do the same when I have more information to share. hi freeman So have cleaned throttle body change seals, new spark plugs, new air filter, oil changed etc etc checked for vacuum leaks with easy start spray no change in engine revs (spray stoped engine when sprayed down intake )still surging. Visited my indy today talk about surge problem, so he said lets put the PWIS box and go for a drive so no errors present put the PWIS will not read anything on the torque converter or torque nothing in the menu for them he checked other parameters all good and no errors for anything else and no obvious faults so now looking a a gearbox specialist to look at it. The is a autobox specialist nearby so next few days will make a visit keep in touch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin450 Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 Video of surge. https://imgur.com/a/tbEigS5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman Posted February 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 9 hours ago, kevin450 said: a couple of links for a zf triptronic from audi highlighting the slippage problem may be relevant https://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/586255-RPM-Surging-or-Transmission-slipping-Automatic https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwjalpes4LfnAhUKXRUIHeHTBCoQFjAAegQIAhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.audiworld.com%2Fforums%2Fattachments%2Fa6-s6-c6-platform-discussion-58%2F35499d1385494271-bmc-high-performance-air-filter-tsb-2028608.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0GNxcjrdY14e3tPnZvEFUI Thank you, very interesting. Seems that all the tiptronic gear boxes have the same issue. I think that the industry knows the answers but no one wants to confirm it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman Posted February 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 8 hours ago, Tubzilla said: Have you driven another 3.2 tippy for comparison, you may not realise how bad the box is. I had a 987.1 2.7 tippy which was very responsive and great fun to drive. After I sold it I had a 986 3.2 tippy and the difference was night and day. It had the same symptoms you describe and was very sluggish. I had the oil and filter changed in the box and the mechanic said it was burnt black. The fresh oil actually made it a lot worse so I swapped it out for a good used one which was about £450. My advice would be to carry on driving the car and look for a good used replacement box. Good evening. No, I didn't as I don't know anyone with a 3.2 tiptronic around me. As for a box, I found a box with ~ 20K miles less than mine from a 2.7 but need to check if it is suitable. The owner says that all works fine, but they will say this, won't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman Posted February 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 2 hours ago, kevin450 said: Video of surge. https://imgur.com/a/tbEigS5 Same thing. I bet that once the T.C and valves are done it will be cured. I found a Luton based company that have experience with Porsches (well, the box is fitted to so many German cars so the Porsche bit is irrelevant). Saying that I think to go the route of a used box but only if it can be returned if not working correctly. Good luck to you and I hope that you will find a cost effective solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman Posted February 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 7 hours ago, DaveEFI said: It's a ZF 5HP and shared by many others including BMW. All autos have a series of clutches which wear out eventually. Same as any clutch. I've not had a ZF box apart, but have overhauled both B-W and GM types. You can usually buy an overhaul kit with all the wearing parts and gaskets, etc. It's a very satisfying job, and no more difficult than the work many DIY on engines. And often easier than a manual gearbox repair. Only if I could. No garage, not all the needed tools and more importantly not the same strength and health as had even 3 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sa utah Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 Best thing to do is to choose your specialists and have the car trailered there. ive used these guys and luckily they are about a 5 minute drive away from me https://austrin-engineering.co.uk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveEFI Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 16 hours ago, Freeman said: Thank you, very interesting. Seems that all the tiptronic gear boxes have the same issue. I think that the industry knows the answers but no one wants to confirm it. Must admit to being confused as to what sort of fault could allow a TC to 'slip' and then not at random. And not go on from this to total failure quickly. Perhaps someone could explain the theory? The TC lockup clutch cycling is much more likely. Basically, a TC is simply a series of impellers in fluid that drive the gearbox. If one were to slip on that drive, it would soon become terminal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveEFI Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 16 hours ago, Freeman said: Only if I could. No garage, not all the needed tools and more importantly not the same strength and health as had even 3 years ago. I know the feeling.😀 It should cost something like £1000 to have the gearbox fully overhauled, plus fitting costs. But they will often replace the TC with new at the same time, as it is near impossible to clean them properly. And maybe the oil pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin450 Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 is it correct that engine also has to come out with the triptronic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin450 Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 auto gearbox specialist also could not find any fault codes , it has the symptoms of torque converter or solenoid advised to get triptronic oil service done its due, and see if that changes any symptoms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman Posted February 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 4 hours ago, DaveEFI said: Must admit to being confused as to what sort of fault could allow a TC to 'slip' and then not at random. And not go on from this to total failure quickly. Perhaps someone could explain the theory? The TC lockup clutch cycling is much more likely. Basically, a TC is simply a series of impellers in fluid that drive the gearbox. If one were to slip on that drive, it would soon become terminal. As I understand (and am sure that someone will put me right if I am wrong) the T.C has a lock up clutch so maybe it locks up at (say 40mph) but if the friction pads are worn the T.C slips. Maybe it works like the Citroen 2CV clutch. Just a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman Posted February 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 4 hours ago, DaveEFI said: I know the feeling.😀 It should cost something like £1000 to have the gearbox fully overhauled, plus fitting costs. But they will often replace the TC with new at the same time, as it is near impossible to clean them properly. And maybe the oil pump. If this is a true cost then a very good value. The used gear that I found is ~ £600 + Delivery, so in this case I will rebuild the current box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman Posted February 5, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 3 hours ago, kevin450 said: is it correct that engine also has to come out with the triptronic Yes and no, depends how the work is done. The gear box is attached to the engine and together they create one lump of metal, this lump is supported by 3 mounts, X1 at the front of the engine and X2 at the gear box, L & R. When the gear box is removed the engine remains unsupported from behind. Therefore the options are: 1. Remove the engine. 2. Leave the engine in place and support by a jack, but this will cause the rump to be occupied until the gear box is back. If it was down to me I would have refused engine removal for two reasons. a. Cost b. Things might get broken/damaged in the process. In many cars the nuts/bolts that hold the exhaust manifold to the cylinder heads are usually stuck and the threads might be stripped. I have replaced the oil and filter X2 but it made no differance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveEFI Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 20 hours ago, Freeman said: As I understand (and am sure that someone will put me right if I am wrong) the T.C has a lock up clutch so maybe it locks up at (say 40mph) but if the friction pads are worn the T.C slips. Maybe it works like the Citroen 2CV clutch. Just a guess. Yes - the TC lock-up clutch would be a likely problem. But that isn't part of the TC, IIRC. And could just be the control interface to it. Not sure if it is hydraulic or electronic control, or a mixture of both. But may be fixable with the box in situ, which would make a big difference to the cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin450 Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 23 hours ago, Freeman said: As I understand (and am sure that someone will put me right if I am wrong) the T.C has a lock up clutch so maybe it locks up at (say 40mph) but if the friction pads are worn the T.C slips. Maybe it works like the Citroen 2CV clutch. Just a guess. Agree with this the auto box specialist said as the T.C. Lock solenoid is locked you won’t see anything for the torque converter slip in fault codes and monitoring as it’s just a slips, as you said the solenoid is doing it’s job in been locked, he said the car triptronic was nice and tight and performed as expected just this slip when not under load when he drove it. I did see one comment from someone on a forum he said had it for ages he just put in manual in a lower gear I have done that it does work just need to get use the revs been high in cruise reference removal etc I will have this conversation with my Indy when I get gearbox oil done like Freeman I am not convinced this will solve problem as I have never felt it related to gear change it’s never caused it to change gears but need to say done that and see if filter is clean on the way home car had a spirited drive what surge 😊😊😊 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveEFI Posted February 7, 2020 Report Share Posted February 7, 2020 If the lockup clutch is slipping due to wear this would be permanent - not intermittent. When the same torque is being transmitted. A control fault to that clutch could well be intermittent. My last car was a Tip, and I'm pretty certain the TC was locked at all times above very low speeds, apart from when it actually changed gear. Unlike my previous car with a ZF 5HP, where you could clearly 'feel' the TC working by the revs, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman Posted February 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 7, 2020 10 hours ago, DaveEFI said: If the lockup clutch is slipping due to wear this would be permanent - not intermittent. When the same torque is being transmitted. A control fault to that clutch could well be intermittent. I understand the logics of your thinking but please allow me to be a bit thick and difficult. Why does it slips only at 2000rpm, 40-50mph and 4/5th gear when coasting? To me this is not intermittent and I have to admit that although I try I don't understand it. There is something that I haven't try and that is hard acceleration. What will it mean if there is a slip when I kick in? T.C? Valves? Gear box itself? I hope to be wiser by next month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveEFI Posted February 8, 2020 Report Share Posted February 8, 2020 Basically, a TC only multiplies torque between say 0 rpm to about 2500 rpm. Above those revs any 'slip' from it is so limited as to be pretty well unnoticeable. In other words, at say 4000 rpm, if you could switch the lockup clutch manually, you'd be hard pressed to feel it working. Other basic thing with autos is the hydraulic pressure which operates the clutches varies with engine speed. So a clutch comes in more gently at low revs than high. I'm not sure how sophisticated the diagnostics are on this box. The basic design dates from the early 90s, so may not be as comprehensive as later units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobbie Posted February 8, 2020 Report Share Posted February 8, 2020 16 hours ago, Freeman said: I understand the logics of your thinking but please allow me to be a bit thick and difficult. Why does it slips only at 2000rpm, 40-50mph and 4/5th gear when coasting? To me this is not intermittent and I have to admit that although I try I don't understand it. There is something that I haven't try and that is hard acceleration. What will it mean if there is a slip when I kick in? T.C? Valves? Gear box itself? I hope to be wiser by next month. I think the issue is probably down to hydraulic pressure since when cruising the RPM is low and this would exacerbate the issue. Either the pump is not capable of generating the pressure in the first place due to wear, blocked filter, degraded fluid etc, or the valves operated by the hydraulic fluid have worn such that there is insuffient back pressure to operate reliably. I'm surprised the autobox specialist wasn't able to give a more specific diagnosis. Good luck finding a solution, mines on 150k, but I rarely cruise at 50mph, but will now have to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman Posted February 9, 2020 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 Thanks Nobbie That make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin450 Posted February 18, 2020 Report Share Posted February 18, 2020 same defect but no answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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