Bobby Dandruff Posted November 14, 2017 Report Share Posted November 14, 2017 First of all, I am no driving God, but I do enjoy spirited driving and as such take my 986 S on track quite regularly. The car is well looked after as a result and has good branded tyres with plenty of tread. Part of the reason for buying a Boxster was its reputation as a good handling car (mid engined, rear wheeled drive etc) From what I can tell, the car tends to predominatly understeer and is difficult to get to oversteer. Or is that my rubbish driving technique? I wouldn’t say that I find the handling fantastic but then again I don’t really have any sensible reference points! What SHOULD I be looking for or are my expectations too high? What I DID find at a very wet Spa on Saturday was the the car obviously understeered quite badly through the slower corners (i.e. the front wheels wouldn’t grip) and that if I wasn’t careful the traction control would cut in to bring the rear wheels back in line through the faster corners or if I applied the power too early exiting a corner (oversteer?) An instructor at a dry Snetterton recently told me that I was getting understeer through certain faster corners, although I couldn’t tell, as I was too buy concentrating! I’d like to able to control the car on track in a less clumsy fashion but don’t really know where to start! Would people here describe these as typical handling characteristics of a Boxster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edc Posted November 14, 2017 Report Share Posted November 14, 2017 You are over driving the car in its current set up. You are probably at the point where a personal geo and some suspension mods might suit. Brake deep into a corner to transfer the weight onto the front. Once on the power try to stay on so you benefit from any rear camber and weight. More front negative camber will reduce the understeer you are experiencing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
map Posted November 15, 2017 Report Share Posted November 15, 2017 @Bobby Dandruff Recognise what you're describing however it isn't the experience you should have. As a bit of background: Out of the factory the Boxster has a degree of understeer dialled into the geometry settings which becomes apparent when the car driven well beyond road limits - I was told that this was an intended characteristic and there for safety reasons. As you say the car is well maintained so if you aren't already it is probably worth looking at track day tyre pressures and keeping them under control throughout - over pressure (high temp) tyres will really accentuate some of the symptoms you're describing. In my case (non-standard suspension and track day tyres) I run at 2bar all round once up to track temps. There's a lot of direct experience of different tyre types on this forum and enough of us regularly track our cars that someone will give you a starting point for your setup so ask that question if you aren't sure yourself. As @edc alludes to you could have a look at the lines you're using - if this is your first mid engined car then your route through track corners will be different to a front engined car, and different again to a rear engined car like a 911, Smart Car or Hillman Imp for example..... In my experience track day instructors tend to "point you" round the day's circuit rather than really helping you get to grips with specifics of the way your car works on track. In truth "Oh mate, you've got a bit of understeer there" isn't in anyway helpful on its own - why are you experiencing it? What advice (instruction) can they provide to help you to minimise or avoid it all together? So with this in mind I'd suggest finding and investing in an instructor who can spend a day on track with you to really get to grips with what is in fact an amazingly well sorted car straight out of the factory. I can recommend someone who I work with in exactly this way and the difference it makes to your enjoyment, track day experience and understanding of car dynamics is massive - it will quickly pay for itself - there are few others on here who have had similar track specific coaching so ask for their pointers too. Get to a better place with the standard car, surprise yourself and others just how quickly these things can get round a circuit and only then go looking for tweaks/mods if you feel that's where you'd like to go - and then I'd start with a geometry refresh to dial out the understeer and add GT3 cooling ducts for the front brakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That986 Posted November 15, 2017 Report Share Posted November 15, 2017 You really don't want a mid-engine car to be oversteering, not unless you have the required talents to catch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james_ly Posted November 15, 2017 Report Share Posted November 15, 2017 Do you trail brake? Mid engined cars need a bit of weight over the front to turn in to full potential. My technique on track is to brake hard, then bleed off the brakes as you turn in. This gets the tail light, so you have to instantly get on the throttle to balance. Then you'll be pointed straight at the apex and you can get on the power hard. Also, do you let pressure out of the tyres once they are hot? Apologies if teaching you to suck eggs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Dandruff Posted November 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2017 15 hours ago, map said: @Bobby Dandruff Recognise what you're describing however it isn't the experience you should have. As a bit of background: Out of the factory the Boxster has a degree of understeer dialled into the geometry settings which becomes apparent when the car driven well beyond road limits - I was told that this was an intended characteristic and there for safety reasons. As you say the car is well maintained so if you aren't already it is probably worth looking at track day tyre pressures and keeping them under control throughout - over pressure (high temp) tyres will really accentuate some of the symptoms you're describing. In my case (non-standard suspension and track day tyres) I run at 2bar all round once up to track temps. There's a lot of direct experience of different tyre types on this forum and enough of us regularly track our cars that someone will give you a starting point for your setup so ask that question if you aren't sure yourself. As @edc alludes to you could have a look at the lines you're using - if this is your first mid engined car then your route through track corners will be different to a front engined car, and different again to a rear engined car like a 911, Smart Car or Hillman Imp for example..... In my experience track day instructors tend to "point you" round the day's circuit rather than really helping you get to grips with specifics of the way your car works on track. In truth "Oh mate, you've got a bit of understeer there" isn't in anyway helpful on its own - why are you experiencing it? What advice (instruction) can they provide to help you to minimise or avoid it all together? So with this in mind I'd suggest finding and investing in an instructor who can spend a day on track with you to really get to grips with what is in fact an amazingly well sorted car straight out of the factory. I can recommend someone who I work with in exactly this way and the difference it makes to your enjoyment, track day experience and understanding of car dynamics is massive - it will quickly pay for itself - there are few others on here who have had similar track specific coaching so ask for their pointers too. Get to a better place with the standard car, surprise yourself and others just how quickly these things can get round a circuit and only then go looking for tweaks/mods if you feel that's where you'd like to go - and then I'd start with a geometry refresh to dial out the understeer and add GT3 cooling ducts for the front brakes. That is excellent advice - thank you. Who is the instructor that you’d recommend as I have already started looking at this? (the only mods that I have made so far, explicitly due to the fact that I want to use the car on track, are, EBC yellow stuff brake pads all round, braided brake hoses all round, race brake fluid, GT 3 front brake ducts and a an oil sump baffle - the car is and tyres are in good nick and this has been confirmed by the garages who have done the work listed above who have checked the car over for me) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Dandruff Posted November 15, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2017 14 hours ago, That986 said: You really don't want a mid-engine car to be oversteering, not unless you have the required talents to catch it. True. And I most definitely don’t! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
map Posted November 16, 2017 Report Share Posted November 16, 2017 20 hours ago, Bobby Dandruff said: Who is the instructor that you’d recommend as I have already started looking at this? The guy I work with is called Dan, you can reach him via http://www.car-iconics.com/contact-us/ - he's excellent. When you speak to him let him know where you heard of him and he'll know who pointed you in his direction. He won't hold it against you..... Dan's a ridiculously talented driver with an uncanny ability to transfer his knowledge and coach you to just outside your comfort zone - and it will be further out than you realise - you won't be too busy concentrating as he deconstructs what is happening and then reapplies the elements layer by layer. @plynchy has been in a car with Dan around Spa - maybe he'll chime in. Yes I rate him very highly, the massive improvement in my track day driving underlines this and we've identified where there are more gains to be had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plynchy Posted November 27, 2017 Report Share Posted November 27, 2017 Slight delay..... Dan is a very talented driver indeed, and a thoroughly nice chap to boot. I’ve been a passenger with him several times and haven’t seen anyone make it look so easy. He’s put in some very interesting times at the Ring in his own car ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purdie Posted November 27, 2017 Report Share Posted November 27, 2017 I’ve also been around Spa with Dan. Quite an eye opening experience and I would also highly recommend him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyderman8 Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 Sounds like you need a specialist with a bit of race experience - RPM Teknik for example, who ran a GT3 Cup for a season. You’ll need your front negative camber maxed out, possibly having your top mount bolt holes slotted so you can get a bit more. Beyond that you’ll need to consider alternate suspension, even the M030 kit - but go too far and the car will beome uncomfortable on the road. Incidentally the BRSCC Porsches are having a track day at Rockingham this Saturday 2nd December if anyone wants to come along - passenger laps a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike986S Posted November 28, 2017 Report Share Posted November 28, 2017 I'd agree that getting maximum available negative camber on the front is an easy first step. Then what size tyres do you have up front? Are they 205/50 x 17? I increased mine as others have done to 225/45/17 and put semi-slick Nankeng NSR2s on the front. (I've also run Toyo 888's on the front before). The Toyo's when half worn were a bit noisy like a wheel bearing issue on the road but when warm the grip was superb. The Nankengs are fine on the road and also grip really well. I enjoyed Spa in my car also running Federal RSR semi slick rear's. Look forward to meeting you at a future trackday - hopefully in the warm next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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