Pre Purchase Inspection Surrey/Sussex Area?

[Photogirl]

Hi all,

I hope it’s OK to use the ‘C’ word here – after all it’s just a Boxster with a lid on.

I’m currently tasked with finding a 987.1 Cayman (for somebody else) and have just started looking at possible contenders. Whenever I’ve purchased a used car I’ve always had an inspection done and I feel a specialist Porsche inspection is well advised. However given that the cars I’m looking at are being sold at establishments they don’t tend to allow a vehicle offsite.

I was wondering if anyone could recommend a good mobile Porsche pre-purchase inspection expert who covers the Sussex Surrey border. I looked at a car this morning (I’m returning to test drive it tomorrow) which is at Farnham, about 15 minutes south-west of Guildford. It’s a 2008 987.1 with 62k on the clock, FSH main dealer and indi.

It looks nice enough (obviously nowhere near as nice as my Boxster!  😹). I had a thorough trawl through all of the paperwork. The things I noted were that there was no evidence that the drive belt had been replaced at around 48K and at its 2016 service there was an advisory on small leak from the RMS. Regarding that, I would want to see if the leek was still small - as I’ll have this car a lot of the time there’s no way I want even one drop of oil on my driveway. The new owner feels he can't stretch to a Gen 2. 

Started it up, no obvious ticking or knocking sounds. Puff of white smoke which was short-lived. 

The only other observation is that the wheels (19”) showed some areas of corrosion which looked quite deep in one or two areas. 

The dealer has fitted new aircon rads and a new battery.

Any pointers regarding getting an onsite inspection in my region would be very welcome.

Many thanks in advance.

[zcacogp]

Hi, and welcome. Yes, they seem to be fairly kind to Cayman owners on here (I am one). They are much nicer than Boxsters (!) so it's only right and proper that we are given suitable status. 😊

I had my 987 Cayman inspected by Carrera Performance in Horsham and they were pretty good and inexpensive. However that's probably a bit far for you if you are in Farnham. 

ePorsch is in Bisley near Woking and they would probably oblige, although I can claim no first hand experience of them. 

[Photogirl]

Ah yes, I know Carrera Performance well (I've got a service there next week in fact) and would have taken it there - but the seller won't allow the car offsite (understandably) so I'm trying to find a mobile Porsche inspector. I had a chat with Peter Morgan earlier today who is very well regarded, but I'm out of his catchment.

Looking around the forum Nick Giles has been mentioned.

[Mattman42]

Nick Giles has a good reputation, especially if requiring mobile.

@faithlessworld has just used him so can provide more detail if needed

Edited June 18, 2021 by Mattman42

[Photogirl]

Good to know, thank you. I'll get in touch with Nick. 

[Photogirl]

Just had a test drive. Only observation was gearbox stiffer than expected when cold (more so than mine) and clutch biting quite high. Otherwise a really nice drive. 

I messaged Nick Giles yesterday and I'm hoping he'll reply on Monday. I have next week to get an inspector in, as the dealer will need me to commit by Friday. It does come with a warranty, though it won't include clutch/RMS. 

 

[Photogirl]

On 6/18/2021 at 4:02 PM, Mattman42 said:

 

@faithlessworld has just used him so can provide more detail if needed

I've had a nice chat with this forum member and I'm now in touch with Nick Giles for an inspection next week.

I have a hypersensitive bottom, ears, feet and nose - so it will be interesting to see if the things I've noticed are in any way significant, or perhaps even non-issues. It's many years since I bought/sourced a car and having IMS/RMS/bore scoring hanging over it is stress-inducing. On this model IMS and bore scoring are less of a risk, but there's still some risk. And hard to diagnose without obvious symptoms. I've had some technicians firmly advising I get any 987 bore scoped, and others saying it's not worth it and the results can be hard to interpret. I had a good listen, all sounded fine. Puff of white smoke on startup like many of them (probably nothing, maybe AOS) which vanished quickly.

I read through all of the paperwork and there was an advisory in 2016 of 'slight weep from rear mail seal'. I know this is common and often not an issue, but I want it checking. There was nothing in the paperwork to indicate it's had a new clutch in which case the RMS would have logically been replaced. 

[Photogirl]

I've just had a good chat with Nick about this Cayman, he inspected it this morning. I appreciate there will be some wear and tear on a 2008 car but there are some things which concern me:

-   RMS is drippy rather than merely misting, so needs attention

-   steering rack oil leak (the car had a replacement rack a few years ago and this is a known fault in the 987.1)

-   clutch vibration in first and reverse which could indicate worn clutch, or flywheel (or just worn engine mounts). My view is the clutch based on my own earlier observations

-   small amount of gearbox noise, more than is usual in 1st and reverse, it should not be there. Could be flywheel or gearbox problem

 

I've referred this to the seller (who has already replaced the aircon rads, coolant pipes, battery and exhaust clamps) who will have a chat with his mechanic. I wouldn't want the car with all those faults but if they replaced the clutch, flywheel and RMS then the rest might become less of a worry. 

[½cwt]

1 hour ago, Photogirl said:

I've just had a good chat with Nick about this Cayman, he inspected it this morning. I appreciate there will be some wear and tear on a 2008 car but there are some things which concern me:

-   RMS is drippy rather than merely misting, so needs attention

-   steering rack oil leak (the car had a replacement rack a few years ago and this is a known fault in the 987.1)

-   clutch vibration in first and reverse which could indicate worn clutch, or flywheel (or just worn engine mounts). My view is the clutch based on my own earlier observations

-   small amount of gearbox noise, more than is usual in 1st and reverse, it should not be there. Could be flywheel or gearbox problem

 

I've referred this to the seller (who has already replaced the aircon rads, coolant pipes, battery and exhaust clamps) who will have a chat with his mechanic. I wouldn't want the car with all those faults but if they replaced the clutch, flywheel and RMS then the rest might become less of a worry. 

At least clutch/flywheel/RMS are all in the same part of the car but still cost up to about £1k but easy if it solves all but the rack issue.

[Photogirl]

The seller has now come back and remarked that the leak on the steering rack is likely to be other fluids arising from changing the coolant pipes, however Nick did feel this was oil.

They have said they will replace the RMS and inspect the clutch and flywheel to see if the wear is within tolerance - surely a complete waste of 6-10 hours of labour just to change a £20 seal, when the car appears to be on it's original and likely worn clutch and flywheel. On that basis a replacement RMS would not make the car any more attractive to me.

I'm also concerned there may be something going on with the gearbox - whilst I expect a little stiffness in first and second when cold, this struck me as inordinately stiff. Could be clutch though.

 

 

[Lennym1984]

If I was a small independent dealer, I don't think I'd bother selling old Porsches. I just cannot imagine that the profit margins are sufficient to make the hassle of PPIs and any remedial work worthwhile. I doubt people would do the same for a 15 year old BMW or a 10 year old Audi and so I think I'd just rather shift a few more of those. Most 15 year old cars will have some flaws and trying to rectify them all probably doesn't make much economic sense (if you are trying to turn a profit).

I kind of agree with the dealer here. If the clutch is within tolerance (ie. isn't actually knackered) then why should they replace it? I think I'd rather just fix what actually needed fixing (ie. could be seen as a fault rather than expected wear and tear) and then if need be sell it to somebody else. The market is pretty hot at the moment and so I doubt they will have too much trouble moving it on.

@Photogirl I do not mean this in a disrespectful way to you and I think it makes sense to do the "due diligence" on a used purchase - Just trying to show it from the dealers perspective. For me (unless it was something expensive) I'd rather buy a 15 year old car privately. An independent dealer warranty on a 15 year old car will be next to worthless and unlike a private seller, they need to make a profit (ie. sell it for a decent margin more than they bought it). This means you a basically paying at or above market price for a car which somebody else was prepared to let go "cheaply"

Edited June 24, 2021 by Lennym1984

[RoryD]

You could offer to supply the parts so they could change the clutch/flywheel. Although if you are worried about the gearbox it might be best just to look for another car.

 

Cheers

Rory

[Davey P]

My advice would be to walk away - Too many unknowns IMHO.  But then again, "I drive a Cayman, so what do I know..." 

[Photogirl]

Agree with all points. I've thought about coming to an arrangement regarding parts but it may be more hassle than it's worth. My position this morning is to resume searching and in fact I'm now going to take things up a notch and consider Gen 2 Caymans as some of the Gen 1 issues are removed. 

[Photogirl]

21 minutes ago, Lennym1984 said:

If I was a small independent dealer, I don't think I'd bother selling old Porsches. I just cannot imagine that the profit margins are sufficient to make the hassle of PPIs and any remedial work worthwhile. I doubt people would do the same for a 15 year old BMW or a 10 year old Audi and so I think I'd just rather shift a few more of those. Most 15 year old cars will have some flaws and trying to rectify them all probably doesn't make much economic sense (if you are trying to turn a profit).

I kind of agree with the dealer here. If the clutch is within tolerance (ie. isn't actually knackered) then why should they replace it? I think I'd rather just fix what actually needed fixing (ie. could be seen as a fault rather than expected wear and tear) and then if need be sell it to somebody else. The market is pretty hot at the moment and so I doubt they will have too much trouble moving it on.

@Photogirl I do not mean this in a disrespectful way to you and I think it makes sense to do the "due diligence" on a used purchase - Just trying to show it from the dealers perspective. For me (unless it was something expensive) I'd rather buy a 15 year old car privately. An independent dealer warranty on a 15 year old car will be next to worthless and unlike a private seller, they need to make a profit (ie. sell it for a decent margin more than they bought it). This means you a basically paying at or above market price for a car which somebody else was prepared to let go "cheaply"

 

All excellent points and I can completely see it from the dealer's perspective - he can also see my side and we are on very good terms.

However if there are issues and there is no movement on price then the risk factor to me as the buyer is the deal breaker. I don't expect them to renew parts which they feel are within tolerance, as you allude that would shrink their profit margins. But I won't buy a car with a visibly worn clutch (at that price) and 6-10 hours of labour to replace just the £20 rear main seal makes no sense to me. As has been mentioned I could consider supplying the clutch and flywheel myself but given the other advisories on this car I'm reluctant to do so.

As you say I'm sure they will sell it easily, the market is indeed grabby at the moment (and prices are high) with not much difference on the private market, interestingly.

[Lennym1984]

5 minutes ago, Photogirl said:

As you say I'm sure they will sell it easily, the market is indeed grabby at the moment (and prices are high) with not much difference on the private market, interestingly.

But private sellers aren't trying to cover a 3-4k margin (I have no idea about used car margins - just guessing). That is kind of my point, a £15K car sold by a dealer is a car that somebody was willing to let go for £11-12k. I'd only let my cars go cheaply if a) I knew there was something wrong with it and it would soon need money spending b) I was desperate for the money or c) I was lazy and happy to take a hit in the name of convenience (which I have done in the past).

[Photogirl]

Yep, there won't be much haggle room with a dealer on one of these, if any. The car was probably traded in for something newer and was then passed onward. The last owner is in Cheshire and the car has ended up down south.

[nixster]

Seems to me that the clutch on a 13 year old car is likely either gone or going soon - I know others will say they have nursed theirs to interstellar mileage but that is the exception not the rule.  So a new clutch and flywheel for the price of the parts isn't a bad outcome IMHO.

A gen 2 will be more expensive and still potentially need a clutch - and the DMF if needed is lots more than the .1 version.  Unless it has PDK of course but then there's a premium to be paid for that.

But of course you've seen the car and I haven't!

Decisions, decisions...

[Photogirl]

It is indeed a hard decision. The prospective owner has budgeted for a clutch, flywheel, and some sundries - but when the car has other possible issues it then becomes much less attractive. It would be good to find a Gen 2 which has already had a replacement clutch. I think the new owner might consider PDK albeit with a further uplift in price, as you say.