M030 Alignment Results or H&R

[fizz]

On 5/4/2023 at 5:39 PM, edc said:

Sounds like a small outfit who maybe only do "normal" cars or a specialist who normally work with a limited range of cars? 

Seems you could be right about that but they were the closest that had a slot available within 2 days. 

Had the alignment done. Does this look adequate? I originally asked for a fast road setup but they said they don't go outside of the default from factory. 

Just collected my car today and he said they have done a fast road setup but dont know if they are bullshyateting me because they couldnt do a better job than the pic below.

When i ring em up to ask for a redo, what should I tell em the problem is? 

Car seems to drive OK but feels a bit odd due to the whole new suspension refresh. 

[fizz]

Cars booked back in for a redo on Monday. 

[edc]

Is that picture a before or after one? The only thing that seems vaguely close side to side is the caster which you can't adjust anyway ... 

I'd be going somewhere else if they let the car leave like that. 

[fizz]

1 hour ago, edc said:

Is that picture a before or after one? The only thing that seems vaguely close side to side is the caster which you can't adjust anyway ... 

I'd be going somewhere else if they let the car leave like that. 

The before figures are the smaller numbers above each section. I've paid £80 quid now but ita going back on Monday. I think they were rushed and tried to just pull a fast one. 

Won't allow that on Monday. 

[ATM]

Your after numbers are all over the place especially at the rear.  They might be a vast improvement over the before numbers but still. It looks to me like you have toe out on 2 corners. I'd be more anxious about toe than camber.

[fizz]

So.. popped back to the garage today and they are having issues trying to work out how to adjust the top of the rear wheel to move it outwards. He said as the strut sits directly into the hub in a fixed position he doesn't know where to adjust it from. 

I said I'd try and find out some info and get back to him when I do. Other option is to go to a specialist and just bite the bullet. 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by fizz

[986T8]

Dude, that’s what those eccentrics inboard on the rear control arms are for. Tell him to look at both sides.

[fizz]

5 minutes ago, 986T8 said:

Dude, that’s what those eccentrics inboard on the rear control arms are for. Tell him to look at both sides.

That's exactly what I thought but didn't know if I was missing anything. Sod em. It's going to a better garage. 

[ATM]

35 minutes ago, fizz said:

That's exactly what I thought but didn't know if I was missing anything. Sod em. It's going to a better garage. 

Sounds like they dont have a clue what they're doing.

[K.I.T.T.]

1 hour ago, ATM said:

Sounds like they dont have a clue what they're doing.

Yep. Sadly, there a number of "alignment places" who have no fvcking idea what they're doing.

@fizz, take it somewhere that has a clue. Be careful driving that until it's properly set up - those current toe settings (esp the rear) are making my teeth itch...

[Andy Mac]

Hi @fizz I went through something similar (ie a poor experience) after a full suspension (all new arms / eccentric bolts / washers / coil overs / inner outer steering tie rods / ARB bushes / drop links .. blah blah blah) on my 996.

Local “specialist” had it for a few days and still couldn’t get it right - including failing to work out height adjustment versus pre load …. it was a right mess.

Anyway - I ended up going to Spires tuning (seen on Harry’s garage videos etc) a few weeks ago. Based in Leamington Spa. Matt there gave it a once over / then set it up beautifully - well balanced figure wise and drives great.

I’d thoroughly recommended them:

[ATM]

I took my 996 to a Porsche specialist who will remain unnamed. They looked at the car and decided they could not align it as it was too low and there was not enough adjustment available. Then I took it to Aline in Dudley who set about doing what they do and had zero problems doing it. Cost to me was 55 quid. When I went to pay I saw a pic of a 996 race car on their ramp being aligned. Now I always take my cars there and I always will.

[fizz]

I wont lie, this car is beginning to grate on me they more shyte im having to deal with over the last few months. 😐 

Im sure when i finally get it to a point i can actually drive it hard and with purpose over the Dales it will all finally make sense and make it all worth while.  

Im going to book it in with Atec-Align in Hudderfield who have been recommended to me by quite a few local car bods now. Plan was to take it straight there originally but car wasnt drivable and needed to get to the closest place who had time to do it. 

Just need to wait for availability from Chong (owner) now and get it down. 

17 hours ago, K.I.T.T. said:

@fizz, take it somewhere that has a clue. Be careful driving that until it's properly set up - those current toe settings (esp the rear) are making my teeth itch...

Noted. 👌
 

12 hours ago, Andy Mac said:

Hi @fizz I went through something similar (ie a poor experience) after a full suspension (all new arms / eccentric bolts / washers / coil overs / inner outer steering tie rods / ARB bushes / drop links .. blah blah blah) on my 996.

Glad im not the only one.  Also lovely 996 btw... glad you got it all sorted in the end. You had the additional headache of the coilover adjustments too thrown into the mix. 

[fizz]

Just got back...

Said he couldn't get the rear camber our any further but it should fine for fast road and odd track day. 

He asked if the car has been lowered, I have put H&R m030 -10mm on which could have an impact.

Front caster he couldn't adjust any further sadly but said its as balanced as he can get. Spent a good amount of time on the car and explained everything properly.  

Edited May 17, 2023 by fizz

[ATM]

33 minutes ago, fizz said:

Just got back...

And how does it drive now?

[fizz]

10 minutes ago, ATM said:

And how does it drive now?

Will take it out for a proper blat on the weekend but much more planted and safer and predictable round bends now. Not thst I was doing anything too crazy before as I knew it was shoddy and risky. 

He's evened out both sides now which it wasn't before. 

[ATM]

50 minutes ago, fizz said:

I see a reasonable amount of rear toe in.  So nice and safe.  You can get a bit of a more racey feeling with a looser rear end from less toe in. 

 

If you are not planning to throw it around much then maybe that's too much rear negative camber.  If you dial out some of that negative camber then the tyre will lean more onto its sidewalls as you corner which can mean a more predictable transition to sliding as the tyre loses grip.  But now we are getting into tweaking here and there and preferences.  Some people seem to think more negative camber is good.  But you should try to understand what this means and how the car will behave as a result.

 

Toe in means the wheels are pointing towards the centre of the car rather than straight forward.  This will eat the tread quicker as the tyres are never going straight unless you are cornering and the weight is only on one side.  Then once the weight is on one side the rear wheel which is weighted is also turning into the bend.  Think of this like the right rear wheel turning left all the time and the left wheel turning right all the time.  This makes the rear end feel tight and predictable and I think the reason rear tyres wear out much much quicker than fronts.

 

Negative camber means the top is in and the bottom is out.  So the tyre is only sitting on its edge when driving straight ahead - again increasing wear if you only ever potter around.  But as you start to lean into a corner the tyre gets to sit more flat.  This means you get increased grip as you turn.  Unless you corner really really hard and then it goes beyond flat to more on the outer edge.  Most BMW sport versions of their cars run a lot of negative camber - OOTB.  You can almost see it on the original X5.

[fizz]

21 minutes ago, ATM said:

I see a reasonable amount of rear toe in.  So nice and safe.  You can get a bit of a more racey feeling with a looser rear end from less toe in. 

I cant believe im saying this in public but i have always liked a loose back end 'fnar' when ive had MR2 turbo's in the past but then i was younger and more on the ball with reaction times and catching the back end usually ending up in a fish tail due to the heavy rear end and more snap over steer in them. 

 

24 minutes ago, ATM said:

If you are not planning to throw it around much then maybe that's too much rear negative camber.  If you dial out some of that negative camber then the tyre will lean more onto its sidewalls as you corner which can mean a more predictable transition to sliding as the tyre loses grip.  But now we are getting into tweaking here and there and preferences.  Some people seem to think more negative camber is good.  But you should try to understand what this means and how the car will behave as a result.

So the rear camber he said due to it being lowered he wasnt able to dial that out any more without going uneven on one side and its possibly due to me having put on M030 lowering springs. I do like to drive the car hard in the bends and do plan to take it on track once im happy its prepped enough so i think it will suit my needs. I tend to put on maybe 2 to 3k miles on per year so tyre wear aint too much of a concern at this stage. 

 

27 minutes ago, ATM said:

Toe in means the wheels are pointing towards the centre of the car rather than straight forward.  This will eat the tread quicker as the tyres are never going straight unless you are cornering and the weight is only on one side.  Then once the weight is on one side the rear wheel which is weighted is also turning into the bend.  Think of this like the right rear wheel turning left all the time and the left wheel turning right all the time.  This makes the rear end feel tight and predictable and I think the reason rear tyres wear out much much quicker than fronts.

You have manged to explain that quicker than Chong at the garage did so thank you for that. Makes sense about loading up the wheels whilst turning will benefit this setup rather than it being used for just everyday sunday driving style. 

I might pop up into the Dales this Sat to try it out and see how it feels now.  

 

[RalphyBMW]

Rear toe also affects camber.

Mine is also on H&R M030, did have a similar issue but Danny at Revolution (Birstall) did a great job, car was brilliant. There’s a particular order to doing things at the rear (can’t recall if it’s camber or toe first), which less experienced places may not be aware of.

I’ve also had a number of positive with Spires, but a bit far away given that the 986 has been a bit needy (service after Spires geo identified inner rod links, so just stuck with Revolution).

Separately I used Bram Racing in Castleford last week - I’d fully rebuilt the rear end on our CR-V - they seemed like great folks, knew their onions. Certainly not like Halfords “wot do you mean it drives like sh1t, it’s in spec”. Didn’t think they could get a simple front toe only (Nissan Leaf) job wrong, but they did!

[½cwt]

General wisdom is camber then toe, but then I've also just had a tech tell me the toe changes don't affect camber on the rear... We'll see how he gets on.

Edited May 18, 2023 by ½cwt

[ATM]

If camber affects toe then surely toe affects camber and so on and so on.  Once it is in the air, connected to the alignment laser machine thing and the adjusters are all loosed up a bit then its easy enough to tweak here and there.  The only outlier is the top of the strut / mounts at the front as these need doing when the car is not in the air.  I dont think there is any adjustment at the top of the rear struts / mounts.

[½cwt]

1 hour ago, ATM said:

If camber affects toe then surely toe affects camber and so on and so on.  Once it is in the air, connected to the alignment laser machine thing and the adjusters are all loosed up a bit then its easy enough to tweak here and there.  The only outlier is the top of the strut / mounts at the front as these need doing when the car is not in the air.  I dont think there is any adjustment at the top of the rear struts / mounts.

Toe shouldn't change camber as the coffin arm would remain where it was, however when you adjust camber you are effectively lengthening or shortening the coffin arm so the toe link joint on the upright is the effective the pivot point for this, increase camber buy moving the inner coffin arm pivot point out must in turn add toe out as the toe link is not moving with it.