usman10316 Posted December 17, 2021 Report Share Posted December 17, 2021 4 minutes ago, Stark9 said: I read in the news that coasting is an offence now with the boys in blue!! With modern autos, they wouldn't be able to tell really? From driving manuals, the main concern is idiots who do it and don't have control of their car (i.e. going downhill). I'll coast here and there, but wouldn't do it on a downhill for example and rather keep the car in second to use engine braking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boxtastic Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 This thread got me thinking of doing an early clutch & gearbox fluid renewal on my 981 when it goes for a service in a couple of weeks. My car will be 10 years old in July & has just turned over 72k. I’ve not heard it mentioned before, but my indie has suggested replacing the sump pan as well; which contains an integrated oil filter. Who knew!? The pan/with filter, is circa £200 but on a car without a warranty, it seemed like a no-brainer to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobbie Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 22 minutes ago, boxtastic said: This thread got me thinking of doing an early clutch & gearbox fluid renewal on my 981 when it goes for a service in a couple of weeks. My car will be 10 years old in July & has just turned over 72k. I’ve not heard it mentioned before, but my indie has suggested replacing the sump pan as well; which contains an integrated oil filter. Who knew!? The pan/with filter, is circa £200 but on a car without a warranty, it seemed like a no-brainer to me If Porsche don’t have it as part of the service schedule, maybe it’s not required? It seems like introducing a weak link as the original sump will be factory sealed and not sure an indie is necessarily going to seal the replacement up as well. Can’t see any reason that the filter should need replacing as what would be clogging it up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATM Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 6 minutes ago, Nobbie said: If Porsche don’t have it as part of the service schedule, maybe it’s not required? It seems like introducing a weak link as the original sump will be factory sealed and not sure an indie is necessarily going to seal the replacement up as well. Can’t see any reason that the filter should need replacing as what would be clogging it up? I think the benefit of changing fluids are obvious. Changing the filter less so. I'd leave the sump pan in situ. You can drop the fluids easily enough by using the drains provided. That's what I did with mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz05 Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 Changing the fluid seems like a good idea but be aware that the reported failures don't tend to be mechanical in nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iborguk Posted January 2, 2022 Report Share Posted January 2, 2022 1 minute ago, daz05 said: Changing the fluid seems like a good idea but be aware that the reported failures don't tend to be mechanical in nature. Is it mainly fluid leaks, temp and position sensors that go💥 for the 981 PDK ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz05 Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 4 hours ago, iborguk said: Is it mainly fluid leaks, temp and position sensors that go💥 for the 981 PDK ? I'm not exactly sure but seems that way, sensors mostly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATM Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 7 hours ago, daz05 said: I'm not exactly sure but seems that way, sensors mostly. Not being argumentative - do you think fresh fluids would be better for longevity of stuff like sensors or leaving everything well alone and untouched? I think fresh fluids has to be a good thing. I still dont know why mine sprung a leak. It could have been because it wasn't used for over 12 months. Maybe I'll never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iborguk Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 14 minutes ago, ATM said: I still dont know why mine sprung a leak. It could have been because it wasn't used for over 12 months. Maybe I'll never know. If you're happy to share it would be good to hear what your repairer says about root cause of the leak on yours when you get an update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iborguk Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 Another random PDK thread I came across today, personally I learnt some new things from this , thought I'd share https://rennlist.com/forums/spyder-cayman-r/1176694-987-spyder-pdk-troubleshooting-and-repair.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz05 Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 59 minutes ago, ATM said: Not being argumentative - do you think fresh fluids would be better for longevity of stuff like sensors or leaving everything well alone and untouched? I think fresh fluids has to be a good thing. I still dont know why mine sprung a leak. It could have been because it wasn't used for over 12 months. Maybe I'll never know. Not saying your wrong because I don't have any direct experience but I guess my point is that in this case I don't think it improves the chances of survival, sometimes playing with things that are already working does more harm than good. I'd opt to change the fluid if I wanted to improve the shifts rather than for preventative maintenance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATM Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 12 minutes ago, daz05 said: Not saying your wrong because I don't have any direct experience but I guess my point is that in this case I don't think it improves the chances of survival, sometimes playing with things that are already working does more harm than good. I'd opt to change the fluid if I wanted to improve the shifts rather than for preventative maintenance. Its difficult isn't it. Figuring out the unknown. I'm not sure if the gear oil side would affect the shifting much - the gears either go in or do not. I think the clutch side seems to have more impact. I know when mine was starting to run low because the first shift from 1st to 2nd when cold would be jerky. Going from jerky to not jerky is obviously noticeable. Out of interest do you know where these troublesome sensors lie - clutch fluid side or gear oil side? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattman42 Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 Had the PDK fluids and filter changed on mine at 10 years old (around 68k miles) - think from memory that it’s due for a change around that time in the service book. Don’t think I noticed much difference in normal day to day driving though - but it wasn’t that expensive, so better to be safe than sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz05 Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 3 minutes ago, ATM said: Its difficult isn't it. Figuring out the unknown. I'm not sure if the gear oil side would affect the shifting much - the gears either go in or do not. I think the clutch side seems to have more impact. I know when mine was starting to run low because the first shift from 1st to 2nd when cold would be jerky. Going from jerky to not jerky is obviously noticeable. Out of interest do you know where these troublesome sensors lie - clutch fluid side or gear oil side? Very difficult. Yes agreed change the clutch fluid first. I don't I'm just a reader and hope it stays that way (touch wood). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoporsche Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 On 12/17/2021 at 3:01 PM, Stark9 said: I read in the news that coasting is an offence now with the boys in blue!! I think you're mixing that up with cruising. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
½cwt Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 Fluids of any type in a mechanical system will slowly deteriorate with time, heat, high load and usage cycles. Lots of high temp short duration uses (track days for example) will degraded it faster than longer lower temp use. This will affect both the oil in the gearbox section and the fluid in the hydraulics section of a PDK. Maintaining good filtration will help because as the fluids deteriorate the wear (microscopic) will increase. From reading (whilst I currently have a 986 - and changed the gearbox oil at 90k miles whether scheduled or not...- my upgrade path would be to a 987.2 PDK so I have a keen interest here) the failure points seen to be sensors (electrical) in the hydraulic side, solenoids (electro mechanical) in the hydraulic side and seal leaks, not major mechanical components like gears and bearings. None of these failure modes would indicate deteriorated fluids. I'm pretty sure Porsche have a good handle on the life of the fluids but they are defining a service plan for a range of use profiles projected well into the future at X time of Y mileage, after 10+ years or 120,000+ miles the usage pattern may well have drifted far from the expected profile at time of design, that said changing the oil in any gearbox or ending will reduce wear and tear as the bearing oil films will be back to full spec in terms of performance over give temperature ranges to protect from wear and support the loads applied better. If you picked up a 20 year old performance car of any sort with an uncertain use history I'm pretty sure you'd consider an engine oil change and likely gear box too. The bigger frustration is that repairs that could be done with single components and cost say £250 - £2000 cannot be done officially as Porsche do not support these but insist on a complete transmission change. Somewhere along the line specialists will get more into this and start to do after market work as the value of the vehicles declines or the age increases making the economics of £8k transmission changes unviable. Just as turbos were a dark art, mechanical fuel injection, even 986/996 alarm and remote key electronics. Some one will do it and then more will follow. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATM Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 I had a manual gearbox fail in my 996 and since then I have been enlightened as to the expense of fixing or refurbing these. I'm not sure what the situation is with manual boxes in the 986 or 987 but it cant be very different. I used to believe that the gear side of the PDK was possibly a better bet because it works much like a traditional auto but now I have been enlightened again that it is nothing like an auto. So I am back to head scratching. I think if I was going to buy a 987 I'd be tempted to go PDK because its just newer and could be better for that reason. The older manuals really are pretty basic and seem to have some well known weak points. The land scape changes when you start thinking about a 981 because it got an all new manual box which I believe was similar to the PDK but now I dont know if that makes sense because how can they be that similar if one can have 2 gears engaged at the same time and the other cannot. I am not a heel and toe person but I know the newer manuals do the rev matching for you so is the manual choice still really a driver's car if the car does this rev matching for you? All I keep coming back to is my general fear and dread when I drive one of these manuals and it is cold and doesnt want to go into gears at all. It feels like I am trashing the insides every time I have to apply a bit of force to get the manual gears to change and that I do not like at all now that I've had a bill to repair one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
½cwt Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 4 minutes ago, ATM said: I had a manual gearbox fail in my 996 and since then I have been enlightened as to the expense of fixing or refurbing these. I'm not sure what the situation is with manual boxes in the 986 or 987 but it cant be very different. I used to believe that the gear side of the PDK was possibly a better bet because it works much like a traditional auto but now I have been enlightened again that it is nothing like an auto. So I am back to head scratching. I think if I was going to buy a 987 I'd be tempted to go PDK because its just newer and could be better for that reason. The older manuals really are pretty basic and seem to have some well known weak points. The land scape changes when you start thinking about a 981 because it got an all new manual box which I believe was similar to the PDK but now I dont know if that makes sense because how can they be that similar if one can have 2 gears engaged at the same time and the other cannot. I am not a heel and toe person but I know the newer manuals do the rev matching for you so is the manual choice still really a driver's car if the car does this rev matching for you? All I keep coming back to is my general fear and dread when I drive one of these manuals and it is cold and doesnt want to go into gears at all. It feels like I am trashing the insides every time I have to apply a bit of force to get the manual gears to change and that I do not like at all now that I've had a bill to repair one. I'm with you on that; the 986 6 speed when cold feels brutal getting it into second. I heel toe too to help preserve the internals. Once you start wearing out or breaking internals like gears, synchros or bearings the cost is pretty huge in any type of modern manual box. The gearbox section of the PDK in basic terms is pretty much like a manual which it is operated by a sophisticated hydraulic system and electronic control unit that protects the mechanical side from ham fisted humans and does it a lot more quickly and precisely so the gear sets themselves should last way longer than any manual 'box. The double clutch bit in the hydraulic side is the clever bit, as you say, allowing two gears to be sync'd and engaged at the same time but only one of the two clutches actually engaged allowing faster up or down changes as your driving requires. Between my wife, my parents and I we've had 4 VW DSG boxes , two of the older 6 speed units on 2.0 TDI engines and two of the newer 7 speed units on 1.4/1.5 TFSi engines. The 6 speed is pretty good, but the 7 speed is fantastic (and I have another on order for delivery hopefully later this month), just as I imagine the PDK would be. None have had any problems in our ownership with just one of the 6 speeds at a scheduled fluids and filter change getting rid of some occasional slightly less than smooth moments when pulling away as it was slow to engage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daz05 Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, ½cwt said: Fluids of any type in a mechanical system will slowly deteriorate with time, heat, high load and usage cycles. Lots of high temp short duration uses (track days for example) will degraded it faster than longer lower temp use. This will affect both the oil in the gearbox section and the fluid in the hydraulics section of a PDK. Maintaining good filtration will help because as the fluids deteriorate the wear (microscopic) will increase. From reading (whilst I currently have a 986 - and changed the gearbox oil at 90k miles whether scheduled or not...- my upgrade path would be to a 987.2 PDK so I have a keen interest here) the failure points seen to be sensors (electrical) in the hydraulic side, solenoids (electro mechanical) in the hydraulic side and seal leaks, not major mechanical components like gears and bearings. None of these failure modes would indicate deteriorated fluids. I'm pretty sure Porsche have a good handle on the life of the fluids but they are defining a service plan for a range of use profiles projected well into the future at X time of Y mileage, after 10+ years or 120,000+ miles the usage pattern may well have drifted far from the expected profile at time of design, that said changing the oil in any gearbox or ending will reduce wear and tear as the bearing oil films will be back to full spec in terms of performance over give temperature ranges to protect from wear and support the loads applied better. If you picked up a 20 year old performance car of any sort with an uncertain use history I'm pretty sure you'd consider an engine oil change and likely gear box too. The bigger frustration is that repairs that could be done with single components and cost say £250 - £2000 cannot be done officially as Porsche do not support these but insist on a complete transmission change. Somewhere along the line specialists will get more into this and start to do after market work as the value of the vehicles declines or the age increases making the economics of £8k transmission changes unviable. Just as turbos were a dark art, mechanical fuel injection, even 986/996 alarm and remote key electronics. Some one will do it and then more will follow. 👍 Am I right in my thinking that Porsche has a shorter service interval for PDK and clutch fluid on the 987.2? Edited January 3, 2022 by daz05 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iborguk Posted January 3, 2022 Report Share Posted January 3, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, daz05 said: 👍 Am I right in my thinking that Porsche has a shorter service interval for PDK and clutch fluid on the 987.2? Yes PDK Clutch Oil at 60k/6 years PDK Transmission Oil at 120k/12 years Edited January 3, 2022 by iborguk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iborguk Posted January 4, 2022 Report Share Posted January 4, 2022 (edited) Random link finds on ZF https://aftermarket.zf.com/go/en/aftermarket-portal/passenger-cars-and-lcv/spare-parts-and-products/transmissions/ https://aftermarket.zf.com/go/en/aftermarket-portal/about-zf-aftermarket/network-worldwide/zf-aftermarket-network/#/ Edited January 4, 2022 by iborguk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark9 Posted January 6, 2022 Report Share Posted January 6, 2022 I can post pics of the error messages I got on mine when my gearbox failed and intermittently worked Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATM Posted January 6, 2022 Report Share Posted January 6, 2022 3 hours ago, Stark9 said: I can post pics of the error messages I got on mine when my gearbox failed and intermittently worked I would get the yellow one telling me some gear might not work. I would turn it off and on again and it might be OK for a little while. If it got really bad I would get the Red error and then it would just stick in one gear. For me it was always sorted by putting in more clutch fluid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark9 Posted January 6, 2022 Report Share Posted January 6, 2022 It would be yellow and say I could drive on but reverse might not work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stark9 Posted January 6, 2022 Report Share Posted January 6, 2022 https://imgur.com/a/uKBbfe5 https://imgur.com/a/QcLgm1G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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