20” wheels without PASM

[moospeed]

I’ve only experienced the 981 on 20’s and only with PASM.

I find the ride excellent, better than I’d have expected previously. I don’t use the hard setting as I’ve not found a need to and never likely to go on track.

For those who’ve had both would you consider a non-PASM car something you wouldn’t go back to?

 

[Withy]

My previous 981S didn't have PASM and had 20" Techno Sports - I can't really remember it being a harsh ride - quite the opposite actually - I was pleasantly surprised how compliant it was.  Current BGTS has PASM and like you I never really use the firm setting, but as @Greenman will confirm - PASM is always in adaptive mode so PASM "off" on a PASM equipped car isn't the same as passive dampers.  I don't think I'd consider lack of PASM a dealbreaker, but it is nice to have all the boxes ticked!

[daz05]

My friend has a similar spec to mine but without pasm with 20" Carrera Classics and yes it does ride a little less well but not enough to bother me.

The ride height does bother me a little though it's 10mm higher.

[CMA]

I've only had non PASM 981s on 20" and always been very impressed with the ride, it rode far better than my old Audi daily. Yes it's 10mm higher, but that helps with the speedhumps around here too. I'd say PASM is a nice to have, not a deal breaker. Got PASM on the Macan GTS but I imagine its a very different system to the 981 given the cars purpose

[ATM]

I think if you like having options ticked then it is a must have.  But if you are a purist then simple passive dampers is best.  

 

Everything on a car is a compromise.  PASM is soft mode should feel softer than the standard passive setup.  What this means if you have 10mm less travel and a stiffer spring but with a softer damper.  That is a contradiction.  You should match stiffer dampers to stiffer springs.  PASM in hard mode then goes totally the other way.  Really stiff dampers but the same [relatively] soft springs.  Again a contradiction.

[daz05]

19 minutes ago, ATM said:

I think if you like having options ticked then it is a must have.  But if you are a purist then simple passive dampers is best.  

 

Everything on a car is a compromise.  PASM is soft mode should feel softer than the standard passive setup.  What this means if you have 10mm less travel and a stiffer spring but with a softer damper.  That is a contradiction.  You should match stiffer dampers to stiffer springs.  PASM in hard mode then goes totally the other way.  Really stiff dampers but the same [relatively] soft springs.  Again a contradiction.

Apparently spring rates are as follows ; non pasm cars are 25nm front and 38nm rear and Pasm cars are 28nm front and 40nm rear. Source is Porsche Club North America.

On some of the driving roads up here I appreciate the additional compliance but I would have my car with x73 any day of the week. They are just feel better and more adjustable with it.

The 991 turbo I drove this weekend with pasm was all over the shop in comparison to mine and had the creaks and rattles to show for it. I guess that's what extra weight does!

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by daz05
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[ATM]

1 hour ago, daz05 said:

On some of the driving roads up here I appreciate the additional compliance but I would have my car with x73 any day of the week. They are just feel better and more adjustable with it.

Its a tricky subject this.  I've got a 996 with rock hard suspension and also stiffer bushes and roll bars.  I use it as a daily driver - as in I dont drive on tracks.  But it feels great to Me except when the road gets rough or choppy and then its awful.  So for 70 to 80% of the driving I do it is great.  You have so much more feel as everything is transmitted to you and nothing is lost in the suspension or bushes or wherever else.  Also because the car doesn't really lean or roll it feels more consistent.

But then when it turns to awful you find yourself thinking it is too hard this.

And there in lies the problem.

I'm sure x73 would be great for most of the time.  You just need to be willing to put up with the bit where it starts to feel awful.  With a standard passive setup it is never awful.  It is just that you know it could feel better if it was stiffer.  And so the merry go round keeps spinning. 

I doubt x73 would be as stiff as my rock hard 996.  It really is ridiculous but at the same time sort of brilliant.

This is where PASM tries to be the answer.  It can be stiff and soft.  But I'm not sold on some electronically controlled damping being the answer.  You need to be able to adjust spring rate too.  I've had PASM on my 997 but that was over 15 years ago and you'd hope things have moved on some.  I occasionally drove that in Hard mode.  But it felt so different to soft that you didnt have the confidence to press on because the car didnt behave or feel as you were used to.

[moospeed]

Thanks for the comments guys, sounds like it's not a deal-breaker then.  I remember Chris Harris saying that conventional springs and dampers were more than acceptable on the 981 so it's good to get some "real world" experience viewpoints.

I must admit I'd forgotten about the 10mm drop, mine never hasn't ever had any scraping anyway with my PASM and there are some hideous speedbumps down my road, so for that so that would just be an aesthetic consideration.

I've been in (and had) Elises with allegedly "upgraded" suspension, by which most people just think harder and lower is better, which of course it isn't.  There's something to be said for a relatively softly sprung, well damped car with decent wheel travel - even a bit of lean but keeping more of a contact patch on the road.

I think it's going to be one less must-have for me, and more nice-to-have if it's there... assuming the ride height isn't 4x4 territory, 10mm difference on a fairly big car isn't massive.

[daz05]

57 minutes ago, ATM said:

Its a tricky subject this.  I've got a 996 with rock hard suspension and also stiffer bushes and roll bars.  I use it as a daily driver - as in I dont drive on tracks.  But it feels great to Me except when the road gets rough or choppy and then its awful.  So for 70 to 80% of the driving I do it is great.  You have so much more feel as everything is transmitted to you and nothing is lost in the suspension or bushes or wherever else.  Also because the car doesn't really lean or roll it feels more consistent.

But then when it turns to awful you find yourself thinking it is too hard this.

And there in lies the problem.

I'm sure x73 would be great for most of the time.  You just need to be willing to put up with the bit where it starts to feel awful.  With a standard passive setup it is never awful.  It is just that you know it could feel better if it was stiffer.  And so the merry go round keeps spinning. 

I doubt x73 would be as stiff as my rock hard 996.  It really is ridiculous but at the same time sort of brilliant.

This is where PASM tries to be the answer.  It can be stiff and soft.  But I'm not sold on some electronically controlled damping being the answer.  You need to be able to adjust spring rate too.  I've had PASM on my 997 but that was over 15 years ago and you'd hope things have moved on some.  I occasionally drove that in Hard mode.  But it felt so different to soft that you didnt have the confidence to press on because the car didnt behave or feel as you were used to.

Good points you've hit the nail on the head, one size does not fit all, and even if it did it wouldn't apply all of the time.

I tried x73 on a 987 Spyder and it was quite good not perfect but I felt the trade off was worth it. Maybe I have the best of both on the 981, pasm and x73 arbs(front bar is now also on the shopping list).

I don't utilise the harder setting very often because most of the time I prefer the additional compliance but I can't say the car behaves any differently when pushed it just feels less compliant. I think the 9x1 system is improved over the previous generation but could be wrong. Apparently the controller you can buy for them is useful.

With 20s the ps4s adds further compliance Vs the P zero so that's something for the OP to consider too.

 

[Ninesomething]

I have 19s and PASM on a 987. It's fine but having been in a 981 with PASM it felt much nicer. Both more controlled and smoother. IIRC they updated the settings for the 981. That said I use the sport setting on the 987 and the car is pretty much glued down. On damp or slippery roads normal setting is better though - sport feels like it could do something bad with very little warning. Where I live the roads are really bad and my old 987 non PASM was unacceptable in places. Friend of mine had a non PASM 981 cayman he he said that going in his friend's non PASM 981 cayman on 20s sent him to the chiropractor.

Probably depends on how the roads are where you live. I was taken out in a new 911 turbo a few months ago and even with everything in full stiiff- inc ARBs - the ride was perfectly acceptable. I guess things have moved on.

[Greenman]

3 hours ago, ATM said:

I've had PASM on my 997 but that was over 15 years ago and you'd hope things have moved on some.  I occasionally drove that in Hard mode.  But it felt so different to soft that you didnt have the confidence to press on because the car didnt behave or feel as you were used to.

This certainly isn’t the case with PASM in the 981. In fact it’s sometimes difficult to tell the difference between modes, both modes are adaptive and there is overlap in the ranges….so someone tootling in sport may have firmer dampers than someone hooning  in comfort.  I only tend to use sport PASM setting when driving spiritedly on dry roads, here you can feel a definite tightening up of the back end and bit less mobility at the rear.
 

I’ve driven other sport saloon cars with smaller wheels but much crashier suspension than the 981, I’m not sure now they can produce a car that both rides so well and handles brilliantly, but as CMA says this isn’t just due to the PASM.

[Lonewolfgjp]

This is my fourth Boxster and third with PASM. I personally wouldn’t by one without it, for me and the roads around here it is spot on.

My current 981 feels great on the 20” wheels in either setting but I rarely use the Sports as there is no need.

 I think the newer system on the 981 is greatly revised from my original 987.1 and you can definitely feel the improvement from my 987.2.

The DSC controller I fitted to 987.2 really transformered the factory PASM, still not quite as good as the 981 factory but very close. So much so that I only ever drove the 987.2 in the Sports setting as it was firm but very compliant even on the dodgy roads around here.

 I would be interested to try a DSC on the 981 but I think the factory electronics have improved so it may not be so noticeable 👍

[Ninesomething]

Yeah I've thought about the DSC but I have a .1 so I have to do the separate accelerometer too. Gets a bit pricey. If I were convinced I'd never buy a .2 or a 981 maybe.

[Rob™]

My 987 had PASM and 19s, my 981 has 20s and no PASM. The odd time I turned the PASM "on" (I know, I know...) I felt like I was losing fillings and never felt the urge to try it for more than a few seconds. Roads around me don't tend to be great, I never took it on a track, and I'm never likely to with the current one either. 

PASM would not be on my list of things to look for. If it's there, yeah, fine it can run in soft mode. I'd rather have heated seats and the PSE I think (although never had PSE, so only guessing).

[CMA]

1 hour ago, Rob™ said:

I'd rather have heated seats and the PSE I think (although never had PSE, so only guessing).

get it retrofitted, best option ever in my opinion

[Lonewolfgjp]

PSE is worth every penny 👌

[Rob™]

Yeah, I thought about it and thought about it... that or the carnewal.

[moospeed]

Yeah, having read the comments confirmed my suspicion that for me PASM has moved from the must-have to the nice-to-have list.  PSE though is engraved hard and fast onto the must-have though, probably at the top.

[Pebisit]

Mins got 20s without PASM and I've had no issues at all. Ride is absolutely fine, yes its no roller, but its a sports car after all. My Focus RS was far stiffer

Certainly wouldn't be interested in the option as a must have

[BrianJ]

I had a 987.2S without PASM and now 2 x 981S with PASM. I've tried 981 and 718 with 19 and 20" wheels without PASM, back-to-back with my 981. To me (and my wife) the immediate benefit of PASM (I only use it "off") is the elimination of the noticeable fore/aft pitching on bumpy roads making the whole ride much more comfortable and less tiring on long journeys. My 2016 car seems even better to both of us than my 2013 predecessor.