el 3.2S Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 My car sits on the trickle charger when not in use. It fires up in the normal way when recently disconnected from the charger. If, however I take a trip into town, park up for a bit and then start the car, it cranks for a scarily long time, almost dying before firing up. It has never not started but I do not enjoy these extra seconds of doubt. I am not sure the age of the battery, but it is at least 5 years old and is a Bosch 80Ah. I presume the alternator to be original. Some months ago, I never detected this longer cranking time period before firing up. I have taken a few voltage measurements in the hope that the collective can determine whether the battery or alternator is at fault here? On charger =13,46v 5 mins after disconnecting charger (bonnet light on) = 13,29v Car running at idle = 14,02v Car running at 2500 rpm = 14,06v Engine off = 13.70v Thank you for all suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topradio Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 Alternator sounds fine. When it doesn't seem like its going to start is it sluggish/slow to turn over or normal? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edc Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 I thought you should see a higher charging voltage at higher rpm say 14.4v and a lower charge more like 13.6v at idle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edc Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 Also why is it 13.7v when the engine is off? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el 3.2S Posted June 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 1 hour ago, topradio said: Alternator sounds fine. When it doesn't seem like its going to start is it sluggish/slow to turn over or normal? Thanks for that and am very glad the alternator sounds fine. It is sluggish and slow to turnover when nearly not starting. It almost seems like it stops turning over and then finally fires into life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topradio Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 Ok, I suspect it may be the starter motor playing up once it's hot. The battery will be charging at 14 volts so I don't see why it won't have enough grunt after driving for a while. Try leaving it off the charger overnight and if it starts normally the next day I think it's starter related. Just before I sold my last but one van it was starting to turn over sluggishly so I replaced the battery, as it was the original one, but it really didn't make a lot of difference. A couple of weeks after, the new owner rang me to ask if I knew the starter was failing, I think he was looking for a contribution to a new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K.I.T.T. Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 Wonder if it's a hot start issue, which may point to the early signs of a leggy crank sensor? As here: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the baron Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 Starter motor seems the likely culprit here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el 3.2S Posted June 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 Thanks all, will unplug it now from the charger. Tomorrow I will check the voltage and then try starting it to see how it does. Which is the bigger, or more expensive job, starter motor or alternator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
½cwt Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 7 minutes ago, el 3.2S said: Thanks all, will unplug it now from the charger. Tomorrow I will check the voltage and then try starting it to see how it does. Which is the bigger, or more expensive job, starter motor or alternator? Just done an alternator which as long as the bush at the back end of the bolt through the idler pulley will knock back (Mine was quite resistant but went first knock after leaving it for 4 days. I'd Plusgas on it so I guess it worked slowly...), it is quite a simple job given the constraints of the engine bay access through the cabin the most useful tool was along screwdriver shaft to help lift the back of the alternator as you can't get to the back to lift it up once it in more or less in place. Putting the brand new serpentine belt on was the most challenging bit. I haven't done a starter motor but it requires removal of quite a bit of the induction pipework and the 101 Projects book says you needs long extensions on you socket set but is overall less time than the alternator. Good chance to give the engine a good clean as well while you have the necessary bits off to access the starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVO Chris Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 Get your battery load tested, normally free at most garages/Kwik fits etc. I had this on my 987 then a week later the battery died. I always keep mine on a trickle charger and the load fault was not detected. New battery sorted it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el 3.2S Posted June 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 2 hours ago, ½cwt said: Just done an alternator which as long as the bush at the back end of the bolt through the idler pulley will knock back (Mine was quite resistant but went first knock after leaving it for 4 days. I'd Plusgas on it so I guess it worked slowly...), it is quite a simple job given the constraints of the engine bay access through the cabin the most useful tool was along screwdriver shaft to help lift the back of the alternator as you can't get to the back to lift it up once it in more or less in place. Putting the brand new serpentine belt on was the most challenging bit. I haven't done a starter motor but it requires removal of quite a bit of the induction pipework and the 101 Projects book says you needs long extensions on you socket set but is overall less time than the alternator. Good chance to give the engine a good clean as well while you have the necessary bits off to access the starter. Yes, the alternator does not sound too bad if it comes to that. After reading your thread, I watched a YouTube video on it. Hopefully it is not the starter motor. 2 hours ago, EVO Chris said: Get your battery load tested, normally free at most garages/Kwik fits etc. I had this on my 987 then a week later the battery died. I always keep mine on a trickle charger and the load fault was not detected. New battery sorted it. That sounds like the next thing I should be doing. Thanks for the tip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracy Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 When I had a 987 it started fine cold but warm at a petrol station it took forever to fire just cranking over before it fired up. After a visit to Opc they said it was the battery never thought in a million years it was the battery as always started cold. New battery on never did it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berni29 Posted June 11, 2020 Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 Hi I would check the earth and positive connections to the starter motor and battery first. Make sure all are good. Berni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el 3.2S Posted June 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2020 31 minutes ago, tracy said: When I had a 987 it started fine cold but warm at a petrol station it took forever to fire just cranking over before it fired up. After a visit to Opc they said it was the battery never thought in a million years it was the battery as always started cold. New battery on never did it again. Interesting, am hoping that it is the battery and the load test tomorrow will confirm. Just contacted the garage and they will do it. 13 minutes ago, Berni29 said: Hi I would check the earth and positive connections to the starter motor and battery first. Make sure all are good. Berni Will do that now, just to file them out hopefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el 3.2S Posted June 12, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 On 6/11/2020 at 4:17 PM, el 3.2S said: Thanks all, will unplug it now from the charger. Tomorrow I will check the voltage and then try starting it to see how it does? Well this morning after a night off the charger the battery showed 12,83v. It started very promptly, which I was not expecting. Once running it showed 14,12v. I took it to the garage and the mechanic plugged in the tester. It showed several parameters but the one for Vida or life showed 0%. I think the resistance? was way too high also. I got him to check a new battery and the life figure for this was 94%. Pretty conclusive that it needs a new battery I think. Likely my 6 years of ownership have been quite hard with 2 weeks every 6 laid up and only short trips during the other 4 weeks. Will report back on how it goes with the new battery in 4 weeks when I return from my travels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
½cwt Posted June 12, 2020 Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 1 hour ago, el 3.2S said: Well this morning after a night off the charger the battery showed 12,83v. It started very promptly, which I was not expecting. Once running it showed 14,12v. I took it to the garage and the mechanic plugged in the tester. It showed several parameters but the one for Vida or life showed 0%. I think the resistance? was way too high also. I got him to check a new battery and the life figure for this was 94%. Pretty conclusive that it needs a new battery I think. Likely my 6 years of ownership have been quite hard with 2 weeks every 6 laid up and only short trips during the other 4 weeks. Will report back on how it goes with the new battery in 4 weeks when I return from my travels. OK, good news. And batteries are dead simple to fit! 10mm for the terminals and 15mm for the retaining plate on the bulkhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el 3.2S Posted June 12, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 3 hours ago, ½cwt said: OK, good news. And batteries are dead simple to fit! 10mm for the terminals and 15mm for the retaining plate on the bulkhead. Yes the battery is the least of the 3 evils which could have been at fault. Not cheap here, the garage wants €200 for an 84aH Varta. Can get a 95aH Varta for €160 in Carrefour though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el 3.2S Posted June 12, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2020 Just watched a YouTube video on how to determine the production date of your Bosch or Varta battery (pretty exciting stuff for a Friday night!) According to the code on my Bosch (786) it was made in June 2007. Probably had a good run for its money! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Concrete-crusher Posted June 13, 2020 Report Share Posted June 13, 2020 I changed my starter at 92,000 miles because it was not disengaging quickly making a squeal, anyway to my surprise the new starter turned over much more quickly and still does 8,000 miles later, quite an easy job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el 3.2S Posted June 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2020 7 hours ago, Concrete-crusher said: I changed my starter at 92,000 miles because it was not disengaging quickly making a squeal, anyway to my surprise the new starter turned over much more quickly and still does 8,000 miles later, quite an easy job Handy to know thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoporsche Posted June 13, 2020 Report Share Posted June 13, 2020 Someone here said starters would squeal due to excess grease on the pinion; remove clean replace and should be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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