topradio Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 I have been thinking this for a while. Despite it being a fabulous car, it is not unreasonable to say that the 718 has not been a universal critical success. This IMO revolves totally around the number of cylinders it has and it not being N/A. I have never driven one so this is purely based on what I have read. The consensus seems to be that the car is more than a match for the outgoing model, aesthetics, build quality, performance etc. and owners are reportedly very happy with their purchase. I haven't seen the sales figures but I suspect that, on paper at least, they are holding up. But, for me, I'm just not seeing many on the road. There is no doubt that the car, if specified with the necessary options is now getting pretty expensive and a good spec is knocking on the door of a base 911 (although whether that is a fair comparison is debatable). Also residual values are being looked at in the industry and this could have an effect on monthly payment plans. My bet is that the Boxster has done it's job and the company only needs the 911 range as a halo and a link to it's heritage and after a 718.2 that there won't be a Boxster Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoporsche Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Sales vs cost to build vs profits. The MX5 and then the Boxster showed there is definitely a market for a 2-seater open top. My only concern is the way the base price is walking upwards, they will be pricing themselves out of the market at some point. Not sure how they're pitching it as entry level vs luxury product. If it becomes as unobtainable as a 911, people will just ignore it and go straight for the 911. For the brand generally, most of the profits are now coming from the 4x4s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topradio Posted October 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 I agree totally with that. The profit will be coming from the people carriers which seem to be in high demand all over the world. There is certainly a market for 2 seat roadsters but as you pointed out the Boxster is getting pretty pricey especially compared to little fun cars like the MX5. I would postulate that the only thing that makes building the 718 worth while is the commonality of design and parts with the 911. But then it may be that which ensures it's continued existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon61 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Given where Porsche's profit comes from, I think we just have to hope that they want to keep the brand associated with the sports car image - and will pay the necessary price to keep making a range that accomplishes this - rather than being happy to let it drift into a more straightforward 'upmarket motor' territory. Personally I think it would be an incredible shame to see the motorsports history just thrown away, and once they lose the image they'd never get it back, but financially that might still make sense. Making a multitude of 'different' car models is nowadays much more economical than previously, plus being in the large VW stable must help with availability to the bigger parts bin if they want to go that way (at least where it's less noticeable), so perhaps there's some hope there. I'm not sure that at the moment the upwards drift of prices is that much of a problem (at least for Porsche - it may be for us) if they keep the appropriate image for the sector they are targetting. Without wishing to spin this thread in a political direction, there still seems to be an incredible amount of money around in certain people's pockets, even if they are spending less of it than they did 10 years ago. Given the numbers of 911s Porsche can sell at a range of silly prices, not just in the home counties, not to mention things like Panameras, I think we just need to hope (again) that Porsche takes enough pity on us (or perhaps just patronises us enough ) to keep making a car we can afford. I don't know what the 718 sales figures are, but I think the number you notice on the road is a relatively poor guide to how well they are selling. Personally I hardly notice many 981s either; I seem to see far more 986/987 models around, just as you would expect mathematically given their longevity and the economics of keeping a £50k car for 15-20 years versus the same with say a Focus or Golf. But I'm sure the 981 sold well, and probably the 718 is too. I expect this forum to have a not-particularly-representative-of the-general-public disdain for the 4-pot, but we even seem to have quite a few members enthusiastic about it on here already. On a more gloomy note though, while electric vehicles don't necessarily spell the end of fast cars (quite the reverse in fact), the autonomous car might, as I still can't quite see that working that well until all the cars (at least on certain categories of roads) are autonomous. Returning to TR's original question in a more simplistic manner, I could well see the 718 being the last 'Boxster' simply because I suspect they might just go with a numerical tag for the next sub-911 model. It may be sacrilege to say it, but I think the whole boxer+speedster thing has outlived its usefulness now and is perhaps a bit twee and dated? </essay> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoporsche Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Seems that the cost-to-build relationship with the 911 is crucial. I think it's known the 911 is more profitable as it's a similar build cost but sold at a premium. So they could kill the Boxster on that basis. BUT, is it only more profitable as the assembly line is kicking out X thousand units of 911s and Boxsters, and if they reduce it to X/2 for just 911s only, do their fixed costs go up so much that the 911 is no longer so profitable? Not sure about the words vs numbers argument. All recent new products since the Boxster (Cayman, Cayenne, Macan, Panamera) have been words. Oh, except the 918... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topbox Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Some evidence to suggest that the Boxster becomes incresingly expensive and therfore exclusive, it is a number first car now ! A high performance two seat convertable has glamorous associations all of its own with the general public which are far more mainstream than the 911 image. Some effective advertising and product placement it might be job done. Can't see that market segment being fusssed over 4 cylinder engine with a turbo. The Boxster word will go. Think they will look to compete in the Ferrari market. "Ay, its a Boxster Eddie, but not as we know it" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon61 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Menoporsche said: Not sure about the words vs numbers argument. All recent new products since the Boxster (Cayman, Cayenne, Macan, Panamera) have been words. Oh, except the 918... Agree with that, but it would seems to make some sense if the 'sports' models had numbers (718, 911, 918) in line with the old lineage, and the 'lifestyle' ones had names. Perhaps it's just that I find the Boxster name a bit cringe-worthy and wouldn't mind seeing the back of it , despite loving the cars. But if they did go that route, I'd rather Porsche used new numbers rather than tried to re-use ones to try to create artificial resonances with old models (718 Boxster combined the worst of both worlds). Or perhaps the next 4-cylinder sports model will be called a 924 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topradio Posted October 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Isn't the general opinion that most Boxster owners aspire to a 911 (BTW I don't actually, the Boxster is perfect for my requirements) but the only thing holding them back is the cost. Therefore the 911 will have to become astronomically expensive to retain the price differential and make the 718 replacement 'exclusive' I think that Porsche are tied to the volume producer model and, apart from some halo projects (918) simply has to keep on churning out the cars. Interesting Ferrari's approach a decade ago when the credit crunch happened was to limit production and put their prices up. I don't think Porsche could ever do that even with the 911. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoporsche Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 17 minutes ago, Jon61 said: if the 'sports' models had numbers (718, 911, 918) in line with the old lineage, and the 'lifestyle' ones had names ooh, may I propose the Posch Wannka ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowbos Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 3 minutes ago, Menoporsche said: ooh, may I propose the Posch Wannka ? I've heard a few people say that as they watch a Boxster drive past - and that's without it being written on the back of the car Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topradio Posted October 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 You would want to take the no cost de-badged option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBD914 v2 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Depends on the sales figures. I can't see them continuing to produce the 4 cylinder turbo engine, used solely in the 718, if it's not selling to expected levels. Whilst I appreciate it is still fairly new, I think I have seen just four 718's on the road since launch, so I'm not very sure if it is meeting sales expectations. Given there is no real economy or emissions advantage (if measured realistically) of the 4 cylinder engine over the F6, I would be surprised if Porsche continue with this configuration for very long, especially given the luke-warm press and public reaction from Porsche enthusiasts - which must be affecting sales volumes. Time...and sales figures will tell! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoporsche Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 The top of the range 911 is a turbo, and there were a few drops from V12 and V8 to V6 in the past (Ferrari, Jag etc) but they've survived. I think they'll go on for another 4 years like this and look "green" to younger buyers, getting higher bhp from lower displacement, by which time the hybrids will start to arrive. There's a thought - Boxster E? It's the smallest car so the best suited for it... The 924 and 944 were only 4 cylinders but they did OK. The watercooled 911 was hated at launch, but no-one's gone back to aircooled. Think the unthinkable - when will the base 911 be F4T?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southy Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 You could have the return of the 912 flat 4. The 924 and 914 served a purpose in that timeline, they were the entry level Porsche, we now have the Macan that is filling this role much better than any Boxster could, be it a 981 or 718. The role of the entry level Porsche no longer has to be a sports car, if the profits are not in a two seat sports car they don't have to build it and it would hardly change anything in terms of numbers sold. The macan is the biggest seller followed by the Cayanne - another entry level SUV would be a better option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart21UK Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Someone above posted about the closeness of the 718 to 911 pricing, whislt that can certainly be true I thought I’d test it…they all had similar colours and options… I just spec'd a 718 'base' to £59084http://www.porsche-code.com/PJTJMEH8 I just spec'd a 718 S to £66295http://www.porsche-code.com/PJSWVK23 a 911 'base' non-cab to £88342http://www.porsche-code.com/PJLIPRQ4 a 911 S non-cab to £96776http://www.porsche-code.com/PJ44UXF4 a 911 'base' cab to £96771http://www.porsche-code.com/PJYUZGM1 a 911 S cab to £105205http://www.porsche-code.com/PJTMNLK7 It seems to me there is easily enough gap in pricing between the 911 and Boxster that it still stands as the ‘entry level’ option for Porsche ownership.. The 718 S to 911 ‘base’ is a £22000 upgrade in cost…(£29k base to base 911) is a fair difference IMO The name may change but the model is likely to stay...I cant see there being no electric/hybrid Boxster in the future neither (or a model similar in size/purpose) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIkeyv60 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 If you dig deep into Porsche's global car sales you will find the 718 is up on sales 9% from the 981 the previous year(2015). In 2016 Porsche sold 237000 cars globally, broken down 100000 Macans , 70000 Cayennes , 30000 911's and the remainder Boxster, Cayman and the Panarmera.The Boxster is now the lowest selling model they make. They shift all they can build. The F4T will live on and will be used in the next 911 like it or not 2020 it will be introduced, They have a couple of new models in the pipeline, a Cayenne Coupe and an X3 equivalent with a coupe sure to follow . The emissions are lower but they had to bring one model down to get within their co2 target for all the range. Instead of reading reviews perhaps you should try one and make up your own decision? It sort of paved the way for other manufactures to turbo their cars , Jaguar has done the 4T now but because its a Jag its acceptable? "especially given the luke-warm press and public reaction from Porsche enthusiasts " I do love this "Porsche enthusiasts" comment, if i remember correctly they didnt want the Boxster built as it devalued the Brand , it saved the company , then the same Porsche enthusiasts said about the diesel Cayenne and it was their biggest selling model until the Macan came along , that tends to suggest that you need to take their comments with a pinch of salt??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIkeyv60 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 3 minutes ago, Stuart21UK said: Someone above posted about the closeness of the 718 to 911 pricing, whislt that can certainly be true I thought I’d test it…they all had similar colours and options… I just spec'd a 718 'base' to £59084http://www.porsche-code.com/PJTJMEH8 I just spec'd a 718 S to £66295http://www.porsche-code.com/PJSWVK23 a 911 'base' non-cab to £88342http://www.porsche-code.com/PJLIPRQ4 a 911 S non-cab to £96776http://www.porsche-code.com/PJ44UXF4 a 911 'base' cab to £96771http://www.porsche-code.com/PJYUZGM1 a 911 S cab to £105205http://www.porsche-code.com/PJTMNLK7 It seems to me there is easily enough gap in pricing between the 911 and Boxster that it still stands as the ‘entry level’ option for Porsche ownership.. The 718 S to 911 ‘base’ is a £22000 upgrade in cost…(£29k base to base 911) is a fair difference IMO The name may change but the model is likely to stay...I cant see there being no electric/hybrid Boxster in the future neither (or a model similar in size/purpose) Totally agree with above , when i bought my 718s i was told you could have had a 911 for that money, well yes i could if it was 4 years old with 20k on the clock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart21UK Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 1 minute ago, MIkeyv60 said: If you dig deep into Porsche's global car sales you will find the 718 is up on sales 9% from the 981 the previous year(2015). In 2016 Porsche sold 237000 cars globally, broken down 100000 Macans , 70000 Cayennes , 30000 911's and the remainder Boxster, Cayman and the Panarmera.The Boxster is now the lowest selling model they make. They shift all they can build. The F4T will live on and will be used in the next 911 like it or not 2020 it will be introduced, They have a couple of new models in the pipeline, a Cayenne Coupe and an X3 equivalent with a coupe sure to follow . The emissions are lower but they had to bring one model down to get within their co2 target for all the range. isn't the X3 'equivalent' already out and called the Macan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIkeyv60 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 1 minute ago, Stuart21UK said: isn't the X3 'equivalent' already out and called the Macan? Sorry X1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart21UK Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Just now, MIkeyv60 said: Totally agree with above , when i bought my 718s i was told you could have had a 911 for that money, well yes i could if it was 4 years old with 20k on the clock same here...when I spec'd my 981 at around £59k, I bought it over the option of circa a 3/4 yr old 911 with 30k on the clock as it would have been the previous model 997 (and I had a 987 already) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart21UK Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 Just now, MIkeyv60 said: Sorry X1 k....I understand...is there really space for something smaller than a Macan though...kind of Q3 size? ..although I'm lost in comparing a Q3/Q5/Q7 to the Macan/Cayenne models...you'd think a Cayenne is bigger than a Q5 (which in turn is the same as a Macan size-wise) but then I'm not sure that's the case...I think the Q5 is bigger than a Macan...(circles around in!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onedesi Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 I think the Boxster will be to stay as it's different and helps porsche distinguish itself from other manufacturers. the VW parts commonality probably means it's probably quite cheap to make and for me the commonality is clear to see in the 718 range. i don't really understand exactly how to read the "how many left " data but my interpretation of the below is they've registered al last 1200 718's In a year so the sales trend in the U.K. seems fine https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?utf8=✓&q=Boxster+981 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIkeyv60 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 6 minutes ago, Stuart21UK said: k....I understand...is there really space for something smaller than a Macan though...kind of Q3 size? ..although I'm lost in comparing a Q3/Q5/Q7 to the Macan/Cayenne models...you'd think a Cayenne is bigger than a Q5 (which in turn is the same as a Macan size-wise) but then I'm not sure that's the case...I think the Q5 is bigger than a Macan...(circles around in!) Q5/Tiguan = Macan Toureg = Cayenne, Q7 same platform just extended , they all use the VW groups platforms and adjust according. Must save a Porsche a fortune on platform development? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIkeyv60 Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 This is an interesting read https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/3158348/amount-porsche-makes-in-annual-profit-per-car-will-shock-you/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowbos Posted October 3, 2017 Report Share Posted October 3, 2017 6 minutes ago, MIkeyv60 said: This is an interesting read https://www.thesun.co.uk/motors/3158348/amount-porsche-makes-in-annual-profit-per-car-will-shock-you/ They are obviously doing something right, or we are all mad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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