987.1's and track days. Recommended or not?

[phazed]

I am not new to TD's and have done most in TVR's.

I am booked in for a couple of TD's in the next few months with my Skoda TD car if all goes Covidly to plan.

As we are getting nearer I am very tempted to use my S. It is a really nice RS60 example and I would be loath to damage it mechanically. Thoughts are oil surge/lack of oil at pickup through higher cornering speeds.

I would use a spare set of wheels that I have shod with Toyo R888's which give increased grip.

I'm not worried about the rest of the car, I am sure it is built to take it but a few seconds, (or more possibly) without oil would be a disaster!

Would this happen?

What are your experiences please?

Thanks.

[brillomaster]

interested to know this too. have done plenty of trackdays in other cars and never had a problem with oil starvation, even when using track tyres. Hoping porsches arent known for having oil starvation issues, though that would be a LOT of a fail on porsches part if a sportscar couldn't handle sporty driving...

[Ninesomething]

 The manual tells you not to track the car on slicks because of oil surge but to be honest track tyres these days are prob grippier than slicks were when the 987 manual was written. 

Depends on the track really. Does it have any really long fast corners?

IIRC the sump has a bit of baffling but prob not enough. You can buy a more extreme baffle. And a windage tray if you really want to be hard core.

[Lennym1984]

I've done a fair few track days in a 986 and my current 987 without any issues. One of the tracks has a long, fast left hander and even that has created no issues or plumes of smoke. I use standard road tyres and don't redline it through the corner (although will ping it out as it straightens out).

I think a lot of the stories about oil starvation are coming from the US where people have built serious track cars which are probably closer to a race car than a road car (running r compounds or even slicks is pretty common there). These cars will pull a lot more G than one would manage on road tyres (or with standard suspension)

[phazed]

All interesting....

I will run my Skoda at a Brands evening in April and if the weather looks good will take the Porsche to Castle Combe in May.

I guess the long right hander at Snetterton could be troublesome. That is about a 1/3 mile long bend where I can reach about 70-80 mph in my old TVR. I ran a baffled and extended sump in that. Combe should be fine though not having any long high G bends.

I will use the Triple 8s as I have them. I understand about using standard tyres but the car is shod with nearly new tyres and it would be a shame to trash them!

Interested to know about baffled or improved sumps.....

[Tony Daniel]

Never had any problems with the 987 but once in a 986 coming off the banked circuit and into a tight left hand hair pin at Rockingham, the car coughed, cloud of smoke out the back and oil light came on momentarily. Thought I'd blown it but then ran fine again.

[map]

5 hours ago, JonSta said:

manual tells you not to track the car on slicks because of oil surge

Most tracks won't allow you to run slicks unless you have a proper roll cage, harnesses and a helmet.  Risk of a roll is greater on slicks than road tyres.

7 minutes ago, Tony Daniel said:

tight left hand hair pin at Rockingham, the car coughed, cloud of smoke out the back and oil light came on momentarily

Had this in the Boxster (986) at Bedford whilst enjoying a quick potter with a VX220 - really did think something terrible had happened but no it was all fine.

1 hour ago, phazed said:

I guess the long right hander at Snetterton could be troublesome.

98x cars suffer on left-handers - at least that's my understanding.  Have run at Snetterton in my tweaked 986 that didn't have the sump upgrades it now benefits from and never had a problem.

1 hour ago, phazed said:

Interested to know about baffled or improved sumps.....

Essentially three options - upgraded baffles to standard factory (aftermarket or Porsche items), increased capacity sump with baffles or deep sump with baffles, windage tray and upgraded pickups.  I have the last of the three - it's pricey but in the context of the engine work that's been undertaken it seems like a sensible option.  You can run any one of these options - the first is probably the best place to start for a road car that sees the occasional trackday.

[Steve Laming]

I got my 986 specifically for trackdays.

I have done approx 4 to 6 trackdays each year since I got it (4 years ago). This includes 2 trips to Spa.

Only issues I have had was at Goodwood and Castle Combe. Both times the engine coughed through a left hander. I put this down to a low level of fuel in the petrol tank, as the car had performed fine all day until below the 1/4 mark on the fuel gauge.

Did a trackday at Snetterton in the 987 Cayman last December and although wet and slippery, the car performed without fault, except the brakes ! 

I have heard that racers tend to fit a better suited sump and if I turned my car into a track only toy, then I may consider this.

Touch wood, fingers crossed both cars seem fine.

 

[edc]

A baffled or deeper sump from Porsche Motorsport of say FVD isn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things. 

[phazed]

Great replies.....thanks.

Are we talking about something like this?

https://www.porscheshop.co.uk/deep-sump-pan-oil-baffle-kit-1ltr-996-997-carrera-boxster-cayman-1997-2009.html

Out of interest, I did Rockingham three years ago in a previous Skoda vRS as a stand in when my TVR snapped a crank. Standard suspension which felt oh so soft at speed but shod with track tyres. Car was on its door handles all day and that VAG 1.8 turbo engine didn't miss a beat. Point is, they should be able to handle TDs.

[map]

@phazed

These are links to illustrate the differences - they aren't links to items that will necessarily fit your car.  You'll need to validate that yourself.

So....

Factory baffle kit: https://www.design911shop.com/Oil-Pan-Baffle-Kit-for-996---997-X51/prod133356/?source=doofinder

Xtra capacity sump and baffle: as you linked to.

Deep sump with other neat stuff: https://lnengineering.com/2qt-deep-sump-oil-pan-kit-inc-pickup-tube-extension-windage-tray-x51-baffle.html  This is the one I have installed.  LNE make some interesting claims for it.

Personally I think it's understandable to be concerned based on what we're reading - that said I've seen enough factory 98x cars being driven hard for track lap after track lap - whether Bedford, Brands, Donnington, Rockingham, Snetterton or Spa and others without suffering oil surge based failures or damage.  Not saying it doesn't happen but think the risks are in reality relatively small but still of course a matter of an individual's attitude to risk.

If it is a bother then fair enough and for the sake of circa £200 plus a bit of extra labour during an oil change I'd fit the Porsche baffled sump.

[phazed]

Are you saying that the £199 Oil pan baffle kit for deep sump or X51 for 996 / 997 will fit my 08 Boxster S?

[map]

8 hours ago, phazed said:

Are you saying that the £199 Oil pan baffle kit for deep sump or X51 for 996 / 997 will fit my 08 Boxster S?

Nope... but nor am I saying it won’t...

10 hours ago, map said:

These are links to illustrate the differences - they aren't links to items that will necessarily fit your car.  You'll need to validate that yourself.

....all I was trying to do was provide a bit of visual information around this....

11 hours ago, phazed said:

  Great replies.....thanks.

Are we talking about something like this?

https://www.porscheshop.co.uk/deep-sump-pan-oil-baffle-kit-1ltr-996-997-carrera-boxster-cayman-1997-2009.html

 

My advice would be to ask your OPC/Indie or a retailer like type911 what the Factory options are for your particular engine.

At least now you know you’re after a factory deep sump kit for your car which will help with finding the specific parts.  What we do know is that this needn’t be an expensive upgrade.

It may be that someone on the forum has knowledge/experience for a 2008 car and will chime in - I’m afraid that’s a bit too modern for me 🤣

Will be interested to know what you learn. Even if you decide against it you will help deepen the knowledge on the forum - if you post your findings - which may well help others with the same engine in the future. 

[phazed]

Update. Had to press my Boxster into service a couple of weeks ago as the clutch was slipping on my track day Skoda.

Venue was Castle Combe. No long bends so I thought I would chance it.

Fitted my spare set of wheels with Toyo R888s fitted. Changed oil to Mobil 1 5-50 and changed brake fluid for high temp fluid. Pads were Brembo all round.

Car was faultless, superb on the track and made we want to only do TDs in this car. It was fantastic!

The balance, braking and the way it neutrally steered through bends was enlightening. I have done about 50 TDs and this seemed close to an Exige I drove a few years ago at Brands.

No oil pressure worries. I kept my eye on the dash as best as I could during heavy braking and cornering, (easier said than done).

I will buy a baffled sump, tis on my to do list and will probably use the Boxster for a future Cadwell Park TD where I'm sure I will show a clean pair of heals to a few of my mates in their TVRs.

[Ninesomething]

Great result. Sometimes it almost seems that Porsche know what they're doing. I wanted a real giant killing track car I reckon a 3.2 with a decent sump baffle, some sticky tyres and an LSD in the back would be everything I want.

[Topher97]

I do about a dozen track-days a year - had a 986 for three years then got a Gen 2 987.  Mainly Castle Coombe and Goodwood.  Never had any issues and brilliant cars - shame about the driver.....

[ricof]

@phazed did you ever get a baffled sump?

[phazed]

1 hour ago, ricof said:

@phazed did you ever get a baffled sump?

Decided just to do the occasional Track day in the 987. Now of course I have bought a 02, 986S which I am upgrading and bringing back to life for Track day use.

The RS60 is sleeping undercover in the garage.  

[ricof]

1 hour ago, phazed said:

Decided just to do the occasional Track day in the 987. Now of course I have bought a 02, 986S which I am upgrading and bringing back to life for Track day use.

The RS60 is sleeping undercover in the garage.  

Thanks for the response. I'm considering the sump baffle - do you know if there is one as standard? 

[phazed]

I believe there is some sort of baffle already in the engine boat. Certainly for Track Days. It will benefit from the extended sump which holds several pints more of oil. I have ordered one from design 911. Also comes with an extended pick up.

 

I believe there is some sort of baffle already in the engine. Certainly for Track Days It will benefit from the extended sump which holds several more pints of oil. I have ordered one from design 911. Also comes with an extended pick up.

 

I’m sure there are other people out there with more information that will either confirm or correct me if I am wrong.

If you haven’t used your 987 on track, you will love it. It is such a great car that we can’t explore any more than 25% of it legally on our roads . 
 

let me know if you want to see any of my GoPro footage from my 987.

[½cwt]

There is a baffle in the M96 and M97 engines, shown in green below. These are semi 'dry sump' engines due to their layout as there is no traditional sump below the engine:

  

There are deep sumps kits with extended pick ups available.  The main issue is that the oil scavenging pick up is only from one side of the engine so long corners in one direction can starve the pick up resulting in loss of oil pressure.

Edited December 1, 2023 by ½cwt

[nelmo]

Will a few seconds of low/zero oil pressure make any difference? All your metal bits will always have some oil on them, surely enough to allow for a few seconds without more?

My kit car ran for several hundred miles with low oil pressure (the gauge never worked so I didn't realise 😱 - it does now) and all that went wrong was one worn big end bearing which cost me £30 to replace. OK, only used on the road (but lots of tomfoolery) and it was a Ford Zetec, so a tad less highly strung but still...

[brillomaster]

a second of low oil pressure is a long time for an engine - the crankshaft will have rotated over 100 times... you might be lucky, you might not.

i've grenaded two engines due to a total lack of oil, so... i'm fairly cautious now, always check the level is near max. but in my 10 years of doing trackdays, i've never seen low oil pressure due to oil surge. i was aware of boxsters potentially having problems round long left handers, but fortunately most UK circuits run clockwise - bedford is an exception, but most of the left hand corners there are tight hairpins. about the only place i can think of which had a long left hander was gracelands corner at rockingham, but thats no longer a trackday venue. maybe cascades at oulton park.

[phazed]

I have only done about 6 or so track days in the 987. It is a really nice car and in immaculate condition so I was aware of the possible problems.

For me, I drove it flat out but changed gear at 6K revs. Tracks I did, Cadwell, Castlecombe and Snetterton didn't have any long left handers as this is where the engine is at its highest risk. Even on longish bends, left or right I stayed in a gear, one higher than ideal to keep the revs lower. I am aware of constant high revs and the build up of oil in the cylinder heads and the pumping back of the oil to the pick up area. I have also used grippier Toyo R888's.

Saying that, I have never had a problem and have talked to people with box standard cars on standard tyres having a whale of a time and not having any problems over many TD's.

 

At the mo I am building a 986 S specifically for TD use. Not going mad on spending, just track focused and will still be very usable for the road.

A couple of clips from one of about 5 TD's at Cadwell, a track that suits the Boxster brilliantly! I disliked Snetterton in the Boxster even though I have dove it countless times before in TVR's and my track Skoda. Too long and relatively boring. Donny is another lovely track that suits the Boxster.

 

[ricof]

13 hours ago, phazed said:

I believe there is some sort of baffle already in the engine boat. Certainly for Track Days. It will benefit from the extended sump which holds several pints more of oil. I have ordered one from design 911. Also comes with an extended pick up.

 

I believe there is some sort of baffle already in the engine. Certainly for Track Days It will benefit from the extended sump which holds several more pints of oil. I have ordered one from design 911. Also comes with an extended pick up.

 

I’m sure there are other people out there with more information that will either confirm or correct me if I am wrong.

If you haven’t used your 987 on track, you will love it. It is such a great car that we can’t explore any more than 25% of it legally on our roads . 
 

let me know if you want to see any of my GoPro footage from my 987.

Thanks again for the reply. I saw in the parts diagrams that there was some sort of baffle, but wasn't sure if it was in situ on all models.

I've done three days since July, absolutely bitten by the bug! Have made some light mods to the suspension and brakes but thats it.

Eyeing up a spare set of wheels and some TD tyres for next season however!