Leonard Posted January 21, 2017 Report Share Posted January 21, 2017 Plus the cynic in me also thinks it's a great way to cut some costs and distance the increasingly better and better 981/718 platform from the 991. Saying all of that I can understand why the 718 will be a better car for some people andthe 718 is certainly a damn fine car regardless of my personal preference when it comes to convertibles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whaleblue Posted January 21, 2017 Report Share Posted January 21, 2017 As we all know, the NA F6 vs. F4T is a much debated topic (see Piston Heads for the worst of it!). I agree, it's personal preference. For me the sheer usability of the F4T without having to rev the hell out of it is what makes it a winner for me. In fact, a work colleague has a 987 Cayman, and lamented that his car needed to be worked so hard was very interested in my experience with the 718. Doesn't make him, me, or 981/987/986 lovers right or wrong. Funnily enough, if I could have an F6 Cayman track car to go with my 718 BoXa (for road trip use) I would find that a great combination, as I think the F6 nuts out tin-top suits the needs of a track car rather well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whaleblue Posted January 21, 2017 Report Share Posted January 21, 2017 53 minutes ago, Leonard said: Plus the cynic in me also thinks it's a great way to cut some costs ... I doubt the F4T is cheaper to manufacture. In fact I wouldn't be the least surprised if it weren't more expensive? What cost a couple of cyclinders compared to Turbo and intercooler plumbing? I'd be interested if anyone actually knows, or has deeper insight than I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoporsche Posted January 21, 2017 Report Share Posted January 21, 2017 I thought the 718 was both boxster and Cayman? Drop and fixed head respectively. Whatever the cost, it was done due to bigger potential costs of emissions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenman Posted January 21, 2017 Report Share Posted January 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Whaleblue said: I doubt the F4T is cheaper to manufacture. In fact I wouldn't be the least surprised if it weren't more expensive? What cost a couple of cyclinders compared to Turbo and intercooler plumbing? I'd be interested if anyone actually knows, or has deeper insight than I do. Allowing for the development of the new engine I expect the F4 will be more expensive than the F6 that was shared over the Boxster/911 platform. I also don't buy the emissions story, the difference is negligible and given the whole VW group and recent introduction of diesel Macan and Cayanne models they could have quite happily carried on with F6 in the Boxster. I think the issue was the Boxsters/Caymans just being too close to the whole 911 experience. For years Porsche have been restricting the engines to maintain a performance gap with the 911. Now each team can develop the engines as well as they can and that gap can never be closed as it will always be F4 vs F6, makes sense for Porsche in many ways. I chose the F6 over the F4 and I feel very lucky to have been buying my first Porsche just at the point where I had this choice. This will not be the case going forward, anyone looking for a new (or near new) Porsche sports car who can't afford (or doesn't like) the 911 will have to go for a F4. It will be interesting whether Porsche can attract the buyers used to a similar delivery from their hot hatches, or whether these buyers are looking for something different from Porsche (I was). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted January 21, 2017 Report Share Posted January 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Greenman said: Allowing for the development of the new engine I expect the F4 will be more expensive than the F6 that was shared over the Boxster/911 platform. I also don't buy the emissions story, the difference is negligible and given the whole VW group and recent introduction of diesel Macan and Cayanne models they could have quite happily carried on with F6 in the Boxster. Do tend to agree. Plenty of other manufacturers make lovely 6 cyl engines that are emissions compliant, BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc If it was purely emissions I would have liked to have seen some smarter engineering to get me interested. A screaming 3cyl engine with turbo and electric assist maybe I know the F4 isnt a bad engine but what other £45-50k (£55-65k after options) sports cars do you know with one? Where are you based Greenman? Im mid-Derbyshire near Matlock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikefocke Posted January 21, 2017 Report Share Posted January 21, 2017 Time and sales will tell if the marketing decision to make the Boxter/Cayman a F4T is a wise move. As more people migrate to PDK auto transmissions and cities become more crowded, is more low end torque the right answer? Where can you use the HP even the earliest Boxster had? How many people mod their exhaust, order the PSE or even just wind the thing just to hear the sounds? How many Boxsters/Caymans are ever used on the track beyond a DE (Drivers Experience) high speed controlled run? Has the Boxster/Cayman become a status/touring car more than a performance car? How many commenters are trying to support their continued enjoyment in the 6F cars they already own (and inflate their value)? How representative are forum members/posters of the Boxster/Cayman buyers of today? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenman Posted January 21, 2017 Report Share Posted January 21, 2017 @Leonard I'm north Derbyshire, Near Chapel-en-le-Frith. If you are interested in drive outs with other Boxanets then keep an eye out in the Meets forum for appropriate threads. Loz will often start a criptically named thread. We frequently drive around the North Derbyshire, South Yorkshire border. (Check out the threads in there referencing 'Strines' etc). Obviously this time of year the weather can interfere though Loz has winter tyres so is usually pretty keen, a few of the regulars are Yorkshire based so they sometimes do the Yorkshire Dales etc (check 'Dalesway' threads etc). This is great in the summer but more of a trek from Matlock way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MIkeyv60 Posted January 21, 2017 Report Share Posted January 21, 2017 On 1/18/2017 at 11:08 PM, Leonard said: If you took the other half would they be bored out of their minds? My wife is coming along as we have both got an experience day with our new car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Cad Posted January 21, 2017 Report Share Posted January 21, 2017 I always ask the dealer for another place for my other half, they have never refused yet. I wonder how many legs were left in the old engine. Could Porsche sustain a 10/15hp increase, model on model whilst reducing emissions and increasing efficiency at each step. They have to reduce emissions across the fleet by 45% compared to the 2007 levels, by 2020. I can't imagine for one second that the turbo engine is cheaper in any way than the established six. I imagine is was very expensive to design and produce. Cutting two cylinders and reducing capacity isn't going to save much on materials. Indirect charge air cooling, turbo charger, variable engine mounts, variable exhaust valve lift, cam phasing, it isn't a trivial thing but very well designed and implemented, if you look beyond the headline and the noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorsh Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 I support the view that Porsche changed the engines to reduce emissions, they have reduced the size (cc) of the engines across the 718 and 911 range and making the 718 a F4 differentiates the gap between them and the 911's. With the turbo engines they have reduced the emissions and been able to increase the performance. Whether real world mpg has improved is arguable, I'm sure it will have during cruising but maybe no better in other types of driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnSyn Posted January 22, 2017 Report Share Posted January 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Gorsh said: I support the view that Porsche changed the engines to reduce emissions, they have reduced the size (cc) of the engines across the 718 and 911 range and making the 718 a F4 differentiates the gap between them and the 911's. With the turbo engines they have reduced the emissions and been able to increase the performance. Whether real world mpg has improved is arguable, I'm sure it will have during cruising but maybe no better in other types of driving. From my very short experience you are right Gordon, in regard to mpg. I had a 991.2, again, on Friday (one of the things I wanted to do was make sure it fits my garage!) and with a bit of 'spirited' and motorway use it returned 22 mpg! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Days Posted February 9, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 It's tomorrow! Can't wait! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenman Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 I'll look out for a report tomorrow night. I've got mine next Tuesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 @Happy Days How did you get on? I'm going on the 15th next week if anyone else is around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason3.2s Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 16th for me, so will be interested to see feedback and if its worth the travel etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Days Posted February 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 Right here goes - this will be along one, so apologies in advance. Early flight out of Belfast into Luton airport and picked up a hire car for the hour's drive up to Silverstone. I can't believe the number of speed cameras on the M1!!! in 16miles, I counted 24 cameras!!! Sat Nav was going mental with the warnings. Arrived at the track, Porsche is well signposted and easy to find. It's located around the back of Stowe on the Hangar Straight. Lots of car parking available. Mind you, our wee Vauxhall looked fairly out of place amongst the myriad of Macans and 911s. Got signed in and went upstairs for lunch. You get a ticket that you leave on the table and your instructor comes and finds you and joins you for the meal. The grub was ok, but not the super gourmet food that we had been expecting! We had a walk around looking at the old cars and the new ones. It's pretty small but there's a 550 spyder there...yummy! All drivers were then taken into a briefing session to explain the rules of the track and the various sections and then it was out onto the course. My car was a 718S manual - identical to mine. The instructor sets up your position and off you go. My car was cold as it hadn't been used in the morning (I was the only one in a manual would you believe!) and so we did a few laps to warm the car up. Good way to get used to the circuit, but going very handy as the car wasn't up to temperature. Then onto the kick plate. I was first on and did had a dozen runs both using PSM and then without. Some difference! By the time I finished there were about 8 cars queueing and there was a fairly long wait, so we left and went to the ice hill. I found that to be really easy, absolutely no trouble. Apparently, no BMW has ever made it to the top because their traction control ruins it for them! Then onto the low friction circuit and here's where the trouble started... It's a set of corners with quite low grip and two circular sections for dough nutting. You have to approach the corners at about 20mph, point the nose in and floor the throttle to get the car sideways. Sounds easy, but it really isn't. I was usually too quick and the car scrubbed around the bend in horrendous understeer. Eventually I got the hang of it in one corner, but was always ruined on the setup for the next corner. Also on the corner with the crest entering the first circular section, I couldn't get the rear out. I got it to work a few times with the PSM on, but as soon as the instructor turned it off, I spun off the track continually. TBH, I'm a fairly rubbish driver, this just proved it! Time to take a break. Then out and onto the track. We did a couple of hot laps and then pulled over. The instructor asked me what I thought I was doing wrong and then he gave his opinion, and he was totally right. Actually he was really good, but I'm embarrassed to sayI can't remember his name! He's a racing driver, I suppose most of them are, but he was really good at explaining things. My biggest problem was looking at the corner, whereas you should be looking at the exit (maybe the next corner?), going too fast in (understeer again) and getting on the throttle too early. His advice was to grip the wheel in one position and when you start to unwind lock, apply the throttle at the same level. Now that's really easy in theory... A few more laps to put the theory into practice. Funnily enough, on the road, I'm always looking really far ahead and through the corners, so this was a surprise. We pulled over and he took the seat for a couple of laps - wow! These wee cars can shift! Such balance and control in the right hands! Back to me again and we went around taking his advice on board. I was catching 911s and Macans - I actually lapped one Macan!!! Then over onto the second circuit - lower grip levels and one really horrible section through a WW2 bomb crater. I was 'racing' a C4S 911 and doing fairly well until I went into the bomb hole too fast, totally understeered and wiped off all the speed, and the 911 was gone. Mind you the instructor did remark that it was a 4WD and could put the power down early! I had an early flight to go for so we pulled in at about 4.15. My wife remarked not he way back that I didn't look like I was enjoying it when we came in for the coffee break, but I think that that's because I didn't do as well as I thought I could. Of course, we all think we're perfect drivers, but really we're probably not that good. It's the car that is! But still it was an absolutely fantastic day that I'd do again in a heartbeat. Couple off interesting facts from the day. A road car goes through a set of tyres in about 3 days on the track. There are 150 track cars at the centre. The recent Panamera launch cost Porsche UK £28k in tyres alone - they get Michelins free but have to buy all the other makes. Silverstone grand prix track costs £38k a day to hire. The 550 spyder in the foyer is valued at about £4.5 - £5m... The PDK clutch has a life time guarantee. Launch control use is not limited - use it any time (unlike some other manufacturers who put a limit on the number of times it can be used). Ferrari now use Porsche PDK boxes with there own software. Made the flight with minutes to spare, but then had to sit on the runway for an hour and a half awaiting de-icing apparently. Do Luton Airport not get weather forecasts like the rest of us? Apparently the last flight to Belfast on a Friday night is regularly cancelled so we were 'lucky' to get home! Highly recommended to everyone. A grand day out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 Awesome read @Happy Days I assume that was the full Experience day that you had? I have the 718 mini session next week and hopefully will have an Experience day to use as well later in the year. Did you have the opportunity to choose your car and/or change it on the day or is it chosen for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1flyguy Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 Only some drivers are actually racing drivers, others are ex military, police etc, as long as you have the right licence you can 'try' to get a job there Lapping cars here doesn't mean anything unfortunately as they may have just been tootling around learning the circuit! i was lucky enough to be in a near identical car albeit a soft top which had 245miles on the clock !!!!!!!! So don't ever by an ex Silverstone car I could have just spent my day doing launch control runs & kick plate, so much fun also the low friction circuit, I found bloody hard to drift a 4wd, next time I'm booking the 991 2S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topradio Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 Really glad that you enjoyed it. It really is great fun and I have promised myself that I will do it again this year. It sounds like they have expanded the experience since I did it 2.5 years ago. I think that all road drivers are guilty of not looking through the corner when on a race track. The low friction stuff is a real hoot. Those are really interesting facts especially about the PDK and launch control. Very reassuring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoporsche Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 Think I was told don't look at this corner, look at the next one. Completely changed my driving. Nice write up. HOW much for the 550?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Days Posted February 11, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 @Leonard No idea - it was just a an afternoon session, standard offering from the dealer, I think. The email from PEC stated that the car would be the same as the one I bought. @Menoporsche£4.5 - £5m apparently... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowbos Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 Super write up thank you. This is on my list of things to do this year as a treat to myself once the weather improves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoporsche Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 40 minutes ago, Happy Days said: @Menoporsche£4.5 - £5m apparently... Must be because it's air cooled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBD914 v2 Posted February 11, 2017 Report Share Posted February 11, 2017 On 21 January 2017 at 11:09 AM, Whaleblue said: As we all know, the NA F6 vs. F4T is a much debated topic (see Piston Heads for the worst of it!). I agree, it's personal preference. For me the sheer usability of the F4T without having to rev the hell out of it is what makes it a winner for me. In fact, a work colleague has a 987 Cayman, and lamented that his car needed to be worked so hard was very interested in my experience with the 718. Doesn't make him, me, or 981/987/986 lovers right or wrong. Funnily enough, if I could have an F6 Cayman track car to go with my 718 BoXa (for road trip use) I would find that a great combination, as I think the F6 nuts out tin-top suits the needs of a track car rather well. Just spotted this advert for a Boxster 981 GTS on Autotrader, now whilst this is clearly a marketing ploy by the selling OPC, nevertheless it is interesting to read descriptions like "the sweet spot in the range", "now one of the rarest and sought after models" and "Future Classic" when referring to this car with its flat 6 engine. For me, that flat 6 engine defines a Porsche, that's why I aspired to owning one and therefore no amount of extra performance, economy or turbo technology will ever get me into a 4 cylinder Porsche. Fine in my JCW Mini, but not in my Porsche! For those who sing the praises of their 718's that's fine, each to their own. I have driven several 718's over many days, but it's not for me, no thanks! I doubt Ferrari will ever dump their V8s and V12s for a 4 cylinder in their aspirational sports cars, no sir, they understand their market!. I have also been invited down to Siverstone on 5th May to drive the 718 on track, obviously I accepted the invite but wish it was a 981 I was driving! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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