Bore Score - what would YOU do?

[ooid]

Some friends/colleagues had engine issues/rebuilts recently;

Jaguar XK8 (engine graneded itself, on motorway - Dodgy plastic timing tensioners)

Mini Cooper S (Oil Starvation)

Smart mk1 (post 70k, overheating in traffic)

Audi RS6 (Oil Pump Seal, complete engine removal)

.... So If I was a 987/997 owner, Bore scoring would be least of my worries really. Any sport car that going near 100k, I think needs a good engine rebuilt and major servicing if it's gonna be a keeper for sometime. I think it has p*ssed off the brand new owners back in 2005/2006 though. If they purchased the car with a massive price + long waiting process and imagining the warranty expires after 3 years when they ended up with a bore scored engine! Porsche could have just taken responsibility and protected these buyers rather avoiding their reliability, the current engine woos around the web is sort of their customer service result imho. 

[Araf]

However you look at it, for low volume performance car manufacturers, Porsche are close to the top of the pile for reliability.

[Menoporsche]

Would love / hate to see the bill for the RS6!

[Patrick Bateman]

I don't really see an engine that could do with a rebuild after 100k miles as a target to be pleased with, sports car or no.

 

The new owner of my M5 just got the big end bearings and timing chain done but nothing approaching a rebuild and that's on a 16 year old car on 160k miles. The bearings were still in good condition too!

[crackfox]

Hello, new to the forum

I'm considering purchasing a 3.4S Boxster from Strasse and i'm getting worried about this. Has there ever actually been a confirmed record of bore score on a 3.4S Boxster? It seems like they hold up much better than the Cayman equivilant. Perhaps due to better ventilation/cooling?

[rhinoman]

This thread is a great example of why this forum is such a good place, its a proper "glass half full" not "half empty" kind of place.

[Araf]

On 4/8/2017 at 4:53 PM, crackfox said:

Hello, new to the forum

I'm considering purchasing a 3.4S Boxster from Strasse and i'm getting worried about this. Has there ever actually been a confirmed record of bore score on a 3.4S Boxster? It seems like they hold up much better than the Cayman equivalent. Perhaps due to better ventilation/cooling?

Welcome to the site.

You are suffering from Porsche Paranoia.  You don't know the brand and so are worried about the unknown.  We all understand that here.

I'm on Boxster #5 and none have let me down (yet).  Total mileage for all cars (not just by me) is over 400,000 and none has had a replacement engine or extensive engine work (to my knowledge).  Engine problems are no worse than for other marques and for a small volume producer they rank highly for reliability.

I have a Porsche warranty, so I have peace of mind but if you are not going down this route,then at least take reassurance from warranty prices.  All Porsches are just under £800 per year.  This is on par with the cost of a warranty for a 2 litre diesel BMW.  Have a search and see how much warranties are for an M3 or an RS4.  The money men have a lot more data than us when they come up with those figures.

[Labeline]

I sometimes wonder why anyone buys a Porsche given all these potential issues and horror stories. I guess the clue lies in the word potential.

[antjrice]

9 hours ago, Labeline said:

I sometimes wonder why anyone buys a Porsche given all these potential issues and horror stories. I guess the clue lies in the word potential.

In my view, there are 2 key reasons for this:

* Bad news will always drown out the good

* There's a strong industry in dealing with these issues but any good salesman is going to try and go after a proactive market in addition to a reactive market - early replacement and treatment etc.

As for the bore scoring issues, i've looked at this a bit as I considered for a while swapping my car for a convertible 997 (abandoned the idea now as after nearly 3 years of 911 ownership, they all look the same to me now more than ever).

The consensus seemed to be that this was a particular risk to the 3.8 M97.1 engine. The M97.1 3.4 in the Boxster/Caymans and 3.6 in the plain Carrera were no particular concerns.

However even amongst the 3.8's it is no certainty that this would happen to every car in the range and an industry has been proped up by saying it will. Don't get me wrong - Hartech look like a solid outfit that put research into their findings but they have skin in the game here.

If it were a 3.8, my research let me to feel that I would still buy one and for my personal piece of mind, get a borescope check from a professional who can tell me the difference between damage and the expected wear for the age and mileage. Any other engine size, I wouldn't bother.

These are tremendously well engineered cars which is why the issues are few, but inevitably get laser focus.

[rhinoman]

I bought our Boxster a year ago almost blind after a throw away comment in a pub that it would make a good track day car and knew very little about any inherent issues with any of them at the time. It was purely to be a toy instead of tracking my S5 convertible which really wasn't the right tool.

Our Boxster is a 2.7 2002 and 75k miles is a great car, yes I've spent a couple of grand doing the service items, a clutch, and by choice a glass hood swap and now its a really good car.

I had considered a 911 before I bought the S5, but ruled it out based on knowing small amounts about IMS/bore scoring issues on the early 997 which was the price point I was at and not wanting to take the risk or spend the extra 10k for a gen2 997to probably get past the issues. Last October the S5 had to go (long story/ refund from Audi) so a 911 was back to the top of the pile choice for me. I saw it at the time like this, either spend ~£25-30k on a gen 1 and risk a £10k engine bill at some time in the next 5 years as it was (according to what I had read) going to happen, or spend the extra now, get a lower mile gen2 with the engine issues engineered out and possibly a few extra bells and whistles (PCM3 and PDK).

I did some man maths and decided to sell the Boxster and a 748 Ducati and I bought my 2010 987.2 with the benefit of a transferable Porsche warranty so almost as good as a dealer car without the dealer price and its been good as gold.  Done 3k miles now and a couple of minor warranty fixes and a service but all good. Haven't got as far as selling the 748 as it looks pretty in my hallway and its appreciating and the wife's putting up with it as she likes the Boxster and is finding plenty of excuses to drive it instead of the Q7 school run bus.

I use a van for work every day so my car is used little. Great as the 911 is and I do love it, if it was depreciating I would sell it and just keep the Boxster as it really ticks most of the boxes on my list, if I knew what I know now I'd have bought a 3.2S instead of the 2.7 but when its rolling on a road and not a racetrack, there is much less in it than you'd think.

Sorry, rambling.... beer at lunch....

The point I wasn't getting to was, after owning the 997 for a while I've now spent the last six months reading more and more about it and of course picking up the thread regarding issues. My conclusions. IMS is only an issue for a few late 996 early 997 and mainly the bigger engine versions. The IMS was upgraded mid cycle which helped that. The low mile cars seem to be more at risk as they are taken out and thrashed as a toy which leads to my final observation, let the oil warm up before thrashing it, 85 degrees or around before giving it more than 3000 revs, that is the main cause or bore scoring.

@Araf just looking to renew my 911 warranty next month and been quoted ~£170 inspection fee and either ~£1100 or £2000 for one or two year extension, might be more for the 911's than Boxster's?

[Patrick Bateman]

Pretty sure engine size and IMS bearing failures aren't really related assuming the same IMS bearing with different engines.

 

And they're as much of an issue on Boxsters of the same age and IMS bearing.

[Araf]

37 minutes ago, rhinoman said:

I just looking to renew my 911 warranty next month and been quoted ~£170 inspection fee and either ~£1100 or £2000 for one or two year extension, might be more for the 911's than Boxster's?

Thanks.  My info is obviously out of date so I'll remember that for future reference.  

[rhinoman]

57 minutes ago, Patrick Bateman said:

Pretty sure engine size and IMS bearing failures aren't really related assuming the same IMS bearing with different engines.

 

And they're as much of an issue on Boxsters of the same age and IMS bearing.

I agree.

The IMS fails or it doesn't, and if it hasn't is a bit of a non issue as its inexpensive to replace with a new clutch, budget for an extra grand.

The bore scoring is down to abuse from cold, if it hasn't and you have mechanical sympathy then it will most likely be fine.

All engines eventually fail but mechanical sympathy helps.

[Patrick Bateman]

Abuse from cold will never help anything but from what I've read, it's not the main driver for scored bores.

 

In other words, I'd rather keep my eyes wide open going into ownership than just thinking mechanical sympathy = no potential for scoring.

Poster 'zantaz' here-

 

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=48&t=1670470

[Kozm]

Japan government has the customer complaints database open to the public.

Out of 159, 30 scoring cylinder cases and 30 IMS cases

Model of scoring:

-99603-		1
ABA-98721		1
ABA-9PAM4801		1
GH-99603		1
GH-997		1
GH-997M9701K		1
GH-9PA00A		1
-99666-		2
ABA-997M9701		2
GH-9PA00		2
GF-99603		3
GF-99666		4
GH-99705		4
GH-997M9701		6

[moneypit]

I did what any sensible person would do when looking to buy and did some research, and came to the following conclusions. The 2.7 seems to be the least likely to give trouble. The 3.4 seems, if any Boxster is, to be the one most likely to give trouble, or suffer from a reputation of doing so, whether accurate or not. Even an accusation of fragility will scare some off, and I didn't want to have that issue come resale time. The 3.2 seemed to be to be hardly different to the 3.4 to drive, and seemed to provide the least problems come resale. They have never seemed to have had bore score issues attached to them.  Regardless of apparent reliability plus points, it appeared that the 2.7 were more difficult to sell judging by how many were for sale at any given time, how little they seemed to command and how long they hung around. 

I bought a 3.2 based on the above. More info has since come to light, provided on this forum, to suggest that mid 2005 3.2s onwards had the larger IMS bearing.If accurate, going by the chassis number mine falls into this category, and I would say, from what I see on the forum that I'm probably lucky enough to have, at least potentially, one of the more reliable examples engine wise of any model of 987.1 There's always the possibility of a cracked head though........

I'm not sure I can see the point in buying the 3.4 when the 3.2 is seemingly less prone to issues and is close enough in performance terms as to barely make a difference on the road. However, obviously, you can get a newer car with the 3.4, which may be a consideration for some. If I was in the market again, I'd simply eliminate 99% of whatever risk there is and buy a Gen2.

[Greenman]

43 minutes ago, moneypit said:

. If I was in the market again, I'd simply eliminate 99% of whatever risk there is and buy a Gen2.

It’s a fair opinion, and it is one held by many people .....as a consequence there is a big price difference between the 987.1 and 987.2 prices. So in effect you are already paying for that peace of mind.  Decent 987.1 can be had for well under £10k  so the 5k plus differance in price is a significant consideration.

[Mattman42]

I went through this predicament 18mths ago when buying mine - started looking at £6-8k range for a 987.1 - obviously wanted an S for the biggest possible engine for no other reason than its faster

Soon discovered the 2.7 was probably the "safest" option in the Gen 1 options, but wasn't sure i'd be happy long term with the "smaller" engine, even if in the real world it is hardly noticable, so after going around and around in circles for a long time, i doubled my budget and bought a 987.2 S PDK - one of the reasons was to have the DFi engine, removing any concern of IMS/Bore score, two was the PDK box - my wife only drives autos and i personally preferred the PDK to the tiptronic, and three, the road tax was cheaper than an post Mar-06 car - so i could justify the increased budget to SWMBO by the annual saving in road tax (Man maths working at its best!!)

Also, post purchase, i found that i would have probably been more informed if i had found BoXa.net during my search rather than using PH - its only now that I realised how bad the majority of "information" on PH is in regard to Porsche - and that a lot of it tends to be an argument between 1 particular user who deems himself to be a Porsche guru (and all his fans) and those that disagree with him - so you can't really get a clear picture of reality because the 2 factions are always arguing!

On the plus side, if this keeps the 987.2 prices up - thats good for me!

[Nobbie]

23 minutes ago, Mattman42 said:

 - its only now that I realised how bad the majority of "information" on PH is in regard to Porsche - and that a lot of it tends to be an argument between 1 particular user who deems himself to be a Porsche guru (and all his fans) and those that disagree with him - so you can't really get a clear picture of reality because the 2 factions are always arguing!

On the plus side, if this keeps the 987.2 prices up - thats good for me!

Was it someone called 'cmoos' or similar? I've seen them referenced on here before and when I followed the link I couldn't find anything insightful, just assertion and questioning the evidence produced by others who seemed to be better informed. Strange vibe on PH sometimes.

[PaulQ]

The only arguments seem to come from 3.4 owners saying that the problem doesn't exist. 

[Bravestarr]

PaulQ, does the bore score problem exist?

I think I saw a post on here saying that we had almost 30,000 sign-ups. I appreciate that many will have moved to other vehicles/marques by now and that in a lot of cases 1 car may be responsible for lots of members but it still gives us a whole heap of members with lots of collective experience.

I have only come across 2 people on here who claim to have actual experience of bore score on their 3.4 Boxster.

When it came to buying mine, I did my research and then bought based on value, probability etc. In my view the premium for a 987.2 is too much and involves too many compromises. E.g. Low mileage 987.1 or a high mileage 987.2.

My car is now 12 years old and so the notion of buying it with resale in mind isn't/wasn't a big factor. I think that sometimes we overlook the fact that in real terms we aren't paying out a lot of money. You couldn't buy a base Kia for what these cars cost now. If you did buy a 10k - 14K new car what would you expect it to be worth in 3 or 4 years? My car is a daily driver, I look after the car, ensure that the servicing is done by someone who knows their stuff and other than that just try and enjoy it. Worrying about the very slim chance of something going wrong isn't on my mind very much.

If I had a 12 year old performance car from any other manufacturer there would still be the chance of some catastrophe somewhere along the line. 

Just to finish off with a controversial point... the 987.2 being a better car is widely accepted on here and for those who have one it pays to subscribe to this view as it helps keep the prices up/justifies the decision made to buy one. If however you have a 987.1 3.4 and it never has any problems then it makes the notion of buying a 987.2 a bit suspect.

 

[Mattman42]

58 minutes ago, Bravestarr said:

PaulQ, does the bore score problem exist?

I think I saw a post on here saying that we had almost 30,000 sign-ups. I appreciate that many will have moved to other vehicles/marques by now and that in a lot of cases 1 car may be responsible for lots of members but it still gives us a whole heap of members with lots of collective experience.

I have only come across 2 people on here who claim to have actual experience of bore score on their 3.4 Boxster.

When it came to buying mine, I did my research and then bought based on value, probability etc. In my view the premium for a 987.2 is too much and involves too many compromises. E.g. Low mileage 987.1 or a high mileage 987.2.

My car is now 12 years old and so the notion of buying it with resale in mind isn't/wasn't a big factor. I think that sometimes we overlook the fact that in real terms we aren't paying out a lot of money. You couldn't buy a base Kia for what these cars cost now. If you did buy a 10k - 14K new car what would you expect it to be worth in 3 or 4 years? My car is a daily driver, I look after the car, ensure that the servicing is done by someone who knows their stuff and other than that just try and enjoy it. Worrying about the very slim chance of something going wrong isn't on my mind very much.

If I had a 12 year old performance car from any other manufacturer there would still be the chance of some catastrophe somewhere along the line. 

Just to finish off with a controversial point... the 987.2 being a better car is widely accepted on here and for those who have one it pays to subscribe to this view as it helps keep the prices up/justifies the decision made to buy one. If however you have a 987.1 3.4 and it never has any problems then it makes the notion of buying a 987.2 a bit suspect.

 

Unless you want a PDK box - not available on the gen 1

[Menoporsche]

From what I read, it is to do with cooling runs in the block, so when the engine goes through a rapid heat, cool, heat cycle eg a short pause between bursts on track then risk of scoring is greatly increased as the cooling cannot circulate sufficiently. Not sure if that would include pulling off the motorway for a wee stop, or if mway driving at 4K rpm is less heating than track at 6k. 

[PaulQ]

2 hours ago, Bravestarr said:

PaulQ, does the bore score problem exist?

If it happened to your car, would it not be problem then ? 

[Bravestarr]

PaulQ I think that my point (perhaps not well put..) is that it looks exceptionally unlikely to. A better question might be would I pay a £5K insurance premium against the chance that it might. The answer to which is no.

C'mon you have been on here for long enough to put up almost 4k posts. In that time how much of a problem has bore scoring in the 3,4 Boxster been?