What have you done to your 981 today?

[daz05]

3 hours ago, zagamuffin said:

Very hard on rear brakes only downside

I can feel that !

[ATM]

On 5/15/2023 at 10:43 AM, daz05 said:

Porsche torque vectoring is simply software to brake the individual rear wheel

I assumed 981 did this as standard. I didn't realise it was an option. I thought all modern ESP systems did this.

[moonshine]

I likewise would have thought selectively applying brakes to settle a car using data from ABS, Steering yaw angle input, gyros etc would be an integral part of the PSM programming in itself.

Does the PSM brake the unloaded, slipping wheel? Or does it it cut power  / brake the driven wheel only ?  

Is it only PTV that selectively brakes 

To me the "torque vectoring" phraseology implies "shifting power" rather than, "selectively braking" the unweighed inner wheel on braking, as (to my non technical head) that is the purpose of the ABS / PSM in the car (however I appreciate this appears to be what PTV does after googling it)

My BMW X3 M40D has a M performance electro mechanical LSD to send drive to the slipping rear wheel, but the standard stability control (DTC) uses ABS etcand  brakes the wheels selectively on cars without the LSD.

 

[Patt]

I'm fairly sure I don't have the PTV option, however I am VERY sure the car grabs rear brakes when it thinks you are driving outside of its comfort zone.

Adding more of the above does not seem like a benefit to me...but I guess it's good click bait for your channel.

[Ringmaster999]

I know he’s not everyone’s cup of tea so to speak. But in this video at around 31:30 they talk about rear break pad wear and ESP which in the AMG Black Series case has caused uneven wear on the different axles.

 

[ATM]

3 hours ago, moonshine said:

I likewise would have thought selectively applying brakes to settle a car using data from ABS, Steering yaw angle input, gyros etc would be an integral part of the PSM programming in itself.

Does the PSM brake the unloaded, slipping wheel? Or does it it cut power  / brake the driven wheel only ?  

Is it only PTV that selectively brakes 

To me the "torque vectoring" phraseology implies "shifting power" rather than, "selectively braking" the unweighed inner wheel on braking, as (to my non technical head) that is the purpose of the ABS / PSM in the car (however I appreciate this appears to be what PTV does after googling it)

My BMW X3 M40D has a M performance electro mechanical LSD to send drive to the slipping rear wheel, but the standard stability control (DTC) uses ABS etcand  brakes the wheels selectively on cars without the LSD.

 

Yes - I have heard / read people discussing track day usage for novice drivers results in over heated rear brakes in most cars because the ESP system is trying extra hard to save the idiot behind the wheel.

I presume it brakes the unloaded or inside rear wheel because if it did the other / loaded / outside wheel it would push the rear end out and induce a slide rather than bring it in.

Maybe the standard 981 ESP does this to a lesser degree if you get really out of shape where as the PTV option does it more or all the time.  No idea.

My first thought was that if it is designed to be used in conjunction with an LSD it may be different than standard ESP.

Track day heroes like to talk about rotation.  Getting the car to rotate as you enter a bend helps get the car turned.  Maybe PTV adds an element of braking the outer wheel to get the car to rotate initially - or is that me over thinking it. Maybe PTV brakes the front inside wheel to help turn in.  It has to be different to simple ESP.

[Menoporsche]

1 hour ago, ATM said:

Track day heroes like to talk about rotation. 

Except when it's multiple times into a gravel trap. Then they are very quiet.

[daz05]

7 hours ago, Patt said:

I'm fairly sure I don't have the PTV option, however I am VERY sure the car grabs rear brakes when it thinks you are driving outside of its comfort zone.

Adding more of the above does not seem like a benefit to me...but I guess it's good click bait for your channel.

I'm sure you can watch and see if you are right or not.

[daz05]

This topic seems to have stirred some emotion in here! This is Porsches explanation of the function. This is not just ESP.

 

 

My feedback would be that this is essentially an extra nanny to help get the car from a to b more quickly. It makes the car easier to drive quickly on the road support at turn in and mid corner before you apply power out. It's not overly intrusive but you can feel it push the car on turn in and tuck your line in.

The downside is that it takes away an aspect of driving the car, it's a bit like a more advanced version of left foot braking as you begin to turn in.

On track I can't confirm but I think it might be too much and cook your rear brakes, perhaps a different driving mode can reduce its impact.

The lack of a Porsche LSD doesn't impact this as they serve different functions. I think the PTV plus option which was never available on the 981 platform brings an e diff into play but more research required.

 

[daz05]

This one is better.

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by daz05

[moonshine]

So, in layman;s terms, it grabs a handful of inner rear brake on aggressive turn in to drag the car around this inside rear wheel, causing the front to pull in tighter.

it seems odd that it is not enabled by default if is simply a software option especially if offers such an improvement to handling as advertised

Edited May 17, 2023 by moonshine

[moospeed]

Parked next to an “oldy” for comparison purposes at the Porsche day at Torque Moto on Sunday.  Lots of other temptations there….  helping to fuel the upgraditis… I think I might be drafting up a classified ad soon 🤔

[moospeed]

I’ve got PTV on my 2.7, which I initially thought was a bit of a waste of an option tick maybe.

But a couple of times in the wet it has felt like it was pushing a little oversteer accelerating out of a roundabout - a little rear wheel “push” similar to a couple of LSD equipped RWD cars I’ve had before.  Surprising, but in a good way.  If it makes me or the car feel more heroic then I’m happy with the option. 

[daz05]

So in conclusion, driver aids are bad and we are all in agreement that we must remove the fuses controlling ABS and PSM at sunrise tomorrow.

[½cwt]

8 hours ago, daz05 said:

So in conclusion, driver aids are bad and we are all in agreement that we must remove the fuses controlling ABS and PSM at sunrise tomorrow.

Or buy a 986.... 😉

I'll keep the ABS though.

[Patt]

If I could, I would...but not at sunrise, that 's too early

[Ringmaster999]

8 hours ago, daz05 said:

So in conclusion, driver aids are bad and we are all in agreement that we must remove the fuses controlling ABS and PSM at sunrise tomorrow.

As a current Advanced Driving Instructor with the Emergency Services the topic “Active Safety Devices that Assist the Driver” is often an interesting one. Commonly it is the lack of understanding amongst drivers on What it is and How the devices assist the driver is the underlying issue. It’s an interesting topic and turning these devices off, if possible, is another topic that stirs emotions. My advice would be understand the system and its operation and drive the vehicle within its limits. On the public roads anyway. On track is another topic. 

[r1flyguy]

@Ringmaster999 At a recent Silverstone driving experience I learnt a couple of things that were rather interesting and comes down to the lack of “RTFM”

One example was to drive at 60/70 mph and pretend to faint as the passenger (instructor) with one hand held the steering wheel and with the other pulled the handbrake button. The car goes into an ‘emergency stop’ kind of mode and stops incredibly well and very safely!!!!

I was impressed!

Edited May 18, 2023 by r1flyguy

[Menoporsche]

Wow. I guess that was 718? Any idea when it was introduced?

[r1flyguy]

1 minute ago, Menoporsche said:

Wow. I guess that was 718? Any idea when it was introduced?

I was actually in the latest Macan GTS as wanted to see what it could do but I’m ‘guessing’ most the new generation models would have this seeing that they all have the handbrake buttons!

[daz05]

I'm not going to test this feature. 😂

Edited May 18, 2023 by daz05

[iborguk]

1 hour ago, r1flyguy said:

I was actually in the latest Macan GTS as wanted to see what it could do but I’m ‘guessing’ most the new generation models would have this seeing that they all have the handbrake buttons!

Did it present a new set of pressed pants out of the glovebox once engagement had stopped ?

Edited May 18, 2023 by iborguk

[moospeed]

1 hour ago, daz05 said:

I'm not going to test this feature. 😂

I can't even find the handbrake button when I'm fully conscious and stationary.

[GTSMarky]

3 hours ago, r1flyguy said:

@Ringmaster999 At a recent Silverstone driving experience I learnt a couple of things that were rather interesting and comes down to the lack of “RTFM”

One example was to drive at 60/70 mph and pretend to faint as the passenger (instructor) with one hand held the steering wheel and with the other pulled the handbrake button. The car goes into an ‘emergency stop’ kind of mode and stops incredibly well and very safely!!!!

I was impressed!

Yep my wife and I were both impressed with that, but a bit tricky on the 981 with the handbrake button under the light switch on the RHS side of the steering wheel.

[Lonewolfgjp]

I ve just refitted my standard red rear lights as the new owner of the GTS lights has just collected them. 

Nice chap from Manchester, nice car very similar to mine and his previous car was a black edition like my old one small world 😂 What he had fitted and was very impressive was the mr12volt Apple CarPlay. It worked flawlessly and looked very good, so if anyone is looking at that it seems excellent 👌 

My Spyder rear lights are stuck in the post but will hopefully turn up early next week 😎