Price of a new clutch nowadays

[Simon_S]

Interesting. Like you Baron I have the 2.5 and think of it as being comparatively bombproof. IMS replacement is not without its risks. Somewhere buried in the Hartech website I remember reading that they didn't advise changing the IMS bearing routinely due to the possibility of maintenance Induced failure. The argument being that small differences in alignment of the new bearing can actually accelerate wear and cause a failure. It seems we can't win. Replace or not there is risk both ways. I guess the decision is more about your feeling on the risk. For me it's not an easy decision given the cost of a second hand 2.5 engine is £1.5-2k. That's not a great deal more than the prices above for IMS replacement. 

[S2sam]

I think I'd be inclined to leave the IMS well alone , ihad a replacement gearbox on mine through warranty , and asked the garage to look at the clutch and IMS whilst the box was off the car  ,they said the clutch was fine and leave the IMS alone , I was going to pay for the clutch and IMS out if my own pocket as the gearbox was off anyway , btw mines the 3.2 

 

[PaulQ]

Would you replace the DMF if it was within tolerance on a 200k car.? 

[Hewey]

34 minutes ago, the baron said:

Ive seen those options, around £1300 from Revolution fitted, glad to hear its still working well, I think for piece of mind like you I would opt for an upgraded aftermarket one even though a lot more expensive.

👆 agree for a keeper.

Not related to IMS. But were we have used cheaper bearings on machinery they very rarely last as long as or effectively as a quality one. We only fit quality bearings now apart from when we know it is outside factors that help cause the failure. ie corrosion and then we replace bearings the bearing  regularly. The cost for quality always works out cheaper than the down time, shorter replacement intervals and associated, expensive, damage caused by failures.

[Nobbie]

I don’t think £700 is a worthwhile investment on a single part of the engine that is not prone to failure (if they hadn’t changed to a single row bearing, nobody would know what an IMS bearing was). Plenty of other parts that can fail on a 210k engine tomorrow. I’d also be wary of introducing an issue as mentioned above. Just get Lee to inspect the bearing for any sign of wear and if present, just replace with the standard bearing. The current one has lasted 210k, so it obviously doesn’t need one 5 times stronger!

[edc]

10 minutes ago, Nobbie said:

I don’t think £700 is a worthwhile investment on a single part of the engine that is not prone to failure (if they hadn’t changed to a single row bearing, nobody would know what an IMS bearing was). Plenty of other parts that can fail on a 210k engine tomorrow. I’d also be wary of introducing an issue as mentioned above. Just get Lee to inspect the bearing for any sign of wear and if present, just replace with the standard bearing. The current one has lasted 210k, so it obviously doesn’t need one 5 times stronger!

If you are already changing the clutch then there is only a relatively small extra labour charge to fit an IMS bearing. 

[edc]

1 hour ago, Hewey said:

👆 agree for a keeper.

Not related to IMS. But were we have used cheaper bearings on machinery they very rarely last as long as or effectively as a quality one. We only fit quality bearings now apart from when we know it is outside factors that help cause the failure. ie corrosion and then we replace bearings the bearing  regularly. The cost for quality always works out cheaper than the down time, shorter replacement intervals and associated, expensive, damage caused by failures.

Even though I have an LN bearing I don't see bearings from the likes of SKF or NSK as being any inferior to an OEM or OE spec one. They are also probably no more or less to buy than an aftermarket sourced OE one. The price difference is to the aftermarket IMS bearings labelled and sold as such.

[the baron]

22 minutes ago, edc said:

Even though I have an LN bearing I don't see bearings from the likes of SKF or NSK as being any inferior to an OEM or OE spec one. They are also probably no more or less to buy than an aftermarket sourced OE one. The price difference is to the aftermarket IMS bearings labelled and sold as such.

I think the aftermarket one is not a bearing as such and is oil fed and comes in at around £500 plus vat and fitting.

Im confused now, as my original posts suggests I had no inclination to change the IMS, now I feel I should.🤔

[½cwt]

10 minutes ago, the baron said:

I think the aftermarket one is not a bearing as such and is oil fed and comes in at around £500 plus vat and fitting.

Im confused now, as my original posts suggests I had no inclination to change the IMS, now I feel I should.🤔

Just from a wear and tear point for view using some conservative numbers for 210000 miles at 40mph average (typical life average speed for vehicles in UK traffic) and at an average of 2500 rpm, this engine has turned some 787,500,000 revolutions (and possibly more like 1B in reality) which is well beyond what Porsche would have considered the service life of any bearing and would be at the very extreme end of what Hartech might be considering when they say leave alone.  If you can find a OE spec dual row bearing there's no reason it won't do another 210,000 miles.  Would I, wouldn't I, not my decision.

[the baron]

49 minutes ago, ½cwt said:

Just from a wear and tear point for view using some conservative numbers for 210000 miles at 40mph average (typical life average speed for vehicles in UK traffic) and at an average of 2500 rpm, this engine has turned some 787,500,000 revolutions (and possibly more like 1B in reality) which is well beyond what Porsche would have considered the service life of any bearing and would be at the very extreme end of what Hartech might be considering when they say leave alone.  If you can find a OE spec dual row bearing there's no reason it won't do another 210,000 miles.  Would I, wouldn't I, not my decision.

Good figures but not happy with the copout "Would I, wouldn't I, not my decision" end to your statement. 😂

WHAT WOULD YOU DO????

[mvw]

I had an LN bearing put in at 60k miles in 2013.  I've done 130k miles on it and when my clutch goes again I'll replace it with another (LN probably).  If CPS suggest you change it, I'd go with their recommendation.

[edc]

2 hours ago, the baron said:

I think the aftermarket one is not a bearing as such and is oil fed and comes in at around £500 plus vat and fitting.

Im confused now, as my original posts suggests I had no inclination to change the IMS, now I feel I should.🤔

There are plain bearings and there are those with the oil feed for lubrications. Generally the plain ones have seals and grease. The idea behind the oil feed ones is to do away with the grease as the premise is that it only washes out over time anyway, and lubricate with fresher oil. 

[½cwt]

1 hour ago, the baron said:

Good figures but not happy with the copout "Would I, wouldn't I, not my decision" end to your statement. 😂

WHAT WOULD YOU DO????

Given you want to retain originality I would change, yes but with a fresh factory spec dual row bearing rather than 00s more for an oil fed kit.  The factory packed grease was specified to lubricate the sealed bearing, but after up to a billion rotations under load even that grease would be substantially degraded by now even if the seals are in tact.  The problem is you can take it out, have a look and decide whether to keep using it.  On originality, an IMS failure would lead to may more non original parts possibly in the worst case right down to the block and having a new engine number!

I operate on a fairly tight budget so really if faced with the decision I'd just go like for like on the OE dual row.

Might be worth watching the video on Pedro's Garage for his analysis of the IMSB issue for a bit more back ground info on the circumstances he believes can lead to failure, although I acknowledge there are other opinions too, this seem more plausible to be as an engineer than some others and I certainly don't subscribe to 'its just luck of the draw.'.

[K.I.T.T.]

I'm firmly in the "if it ain't broke..." cohort, particularly so with a dual row bearing car.

It is possible to inspect the bearing in situ with the flywheel off, and had this done on both my cars - the 2.7 (dual row) and 3.2 (single row) were both in great condition after 120k. I do appreciate this is half the miles of your example, but I had the bearing left as is, simply replacing the clutch, and flywheel.

In the last 12 months or so, across a number of forums and FB groups, have seen more failures of replacement bearings (either the bearing itself, or shortcuts done elsewhere in the process grenading the motor) failing, than I have original bearings. The fact that you've had this car for such a long period, and you know that it's not been neglected means that even at higher miles, you bearing *may* be healthier than lower mileage cars where the owner(s) has not been as fastidious with oil changes.

As alluded to at the start of this page, a number of well respected specialists advise against replacing the bearing, unless the case has already been split. Not only issues with aligning the replacement bearing, the the forces required to extract the existing bearing without splitting the engine (these weren't designed as a serviceable item) were described as "Imagine a dentist extracting a molar..."

Certainly not suggesting you to follow a particular path, just outlining my take on it. YMMV.

[the baron]

32 minutes ago, ½cwt said:

Given you want to retain originality I would change, yes but with a fresh factory spec dual row bearing rather than 00s more for an oil fed kit.  The factory packed grease was specified to lubricate the sealed bearing, but after up to a billion rotations under load even that grease would be substantially degraded by now even if the seals are in tact.  The problem is you can take it out, have a look and decide whether to keep using it.  On originality, an IMS failure would lead to may more non original parts possibly in the worst case right down to the block and having a new engine number!

I operate on a fairly tight budget so really if faced with the decision I'd just go like for like on the OE dual row.

Might be worth watching the video on Pedro's Garage for his analysis of the IMSB issue for a bit more back ground info on the circumstances he believes can lead to failure, although I acknowledge there are other opinions too, this seem more plausible to be as an engineer than some others and I certainly don't subscribe to 'its just luck of the draw.'.

I phoned my OPC today and they don't supply the actual duel row bearing, they supply the housing etc but recommend going to one the recommended bearing companies which I thought was interesting.

[the baron]

32 minutes ago, K.I.T.T. said:

I'm firmly in the "if it ain't broke..." cohort, particularly so with a dual row bearing car.

It is possible to inspect the bearing in situ with the flywheel off, and had this done on both my cars - the 2.7 (dual row) and 3.2 (single row) were both in great condition after 120k. I do appreciate this is half the miles of your example, but I had the bearing left as is, simply replacing the clutch, and flywheel.

In the last 12 months or so, across a number of forums and FB groups, have seen more failures of replacement bearings (either the bearing itself, or shortcuts done elsewhere in the process grenading the motor) failing, than I have original bearings. The fact that you've had this car for such a long period, and you know that it's not been neglected means that even at higher miles, you bearing *may* be healthier than lower mileage cars where the owner(s) has not been as fastidious with oil changes.

As alluded to at the start of this page, a number of well respected specialists advise against replacing the bearing, unless the case has already been split. Not only issues with aligning the replacement bearing, the the forces required to extract the existing bearing without splitting the engine (these weren't designed as a serviceable item) were described as "Imagine a dentist extracting a molar..."

Certainly not suggesting you to follow a particular path, just outlining my take on it. YMMV.

Interesting, thanks for the reply, I am in the "If it aint broke.." camp too and my concern would be the alignment of new IMS etc and my thoughts are best leave it alone however I also understand the train of thought that says this a mechanical part that will fail eventually.

Still don't know what to do.

[Pordave]

Please excuse my ignorance but is there a definitive way other than stripping the car to bits to find out whether you have a single or dual row IMS bearing, ie engine or chassis no, year of manufacture etc

Although my V reg 1999 2.7 runs like a sewing machine with no current clutch issues it’s done over 142,000 presumably on the original bearing. 
I appreciate all sides of the argument put so far but would personally replace like for like if a dual row or modern replacement if single row.

Cheers Dave

[½cwt]

I found this thread on rennlist:

https://rennlist.com/forums/996-forum/1076088-dual-row-or-single-row-ims.html

whilst it refers to 996 in the subject it is still the M96 engine and I've also cross referenced to the PET to confirm the engine numbers quoted there and they agree:

Boxster: Double Row: up to 651 12851 (M96.22) up to 671 11237 (M96.21)

Single Row: from 651 12852 (M96.22) from 671 11238 (M96.21)

[Pordave]

Many thanks Dave

[tonyplymouth]

Worth noting that original spec NSK BD20-17-A-DDUA17NX01 20x47x23.812mm dual-row angular contact ball bearings with snap ring groove, as fitted by Porsche in the IMS of early Boxsters, are available from French company 123bearing.co.uk for £60 incl VAT and delivery.

[Tonybandit]

@the barron sooooo what have you done? 

Just the clutch or have you got the IMS done too?

I've read everyone's comment and am very interested in your choice.

I've thought about having mine changed but also thoughts of doing it myself as I have access to the fitting tool to do it.

If I do change myself I would fit an OE bearing as IMO if it's done 86k on the old one then it will do another 86k on this one. Cheap enough then to change with every clutch. 

Just my opinion 

Please let us know what you decide to do. 

[K.I.T.T.]

@Tonybandit, Cheese Bob is the forum oracle on all things IMS. See his thread below:

 

[Topbox]

On 11/12/2020 at 6:20 PM, K.I.T.T. said:

The fact that you've had this car for such a long period, and you know that it's not been neglected means that even at higher miles, you bearing *may* be healthier than lower mileage cars where the owner(s) has not been as fastidious with oil changes.

As alluded to at the start of this page, a number of well respected specialists advise against replacing the bearing, unless the case has already been split. Not only issues with aligning the replacement bearing, the the forces required to extract the existing bearing without splitting the engine (these weren't designed as a serviceable item) were described as "Imagine a dentist extracting a molar..."

I think the first paragraph is very relevant to your situation @the baron At your miles you could do the bearing and have something else give way and wreck the engine. Or have the whole engine rebuilt . . .

[the baron]

45 minutes ago, Topbox said:

I think the first paragraph is very relevant to your situation @the baron At your miles you could do the bearing and have something else give way and wreck the engine. Or have the whole engine rebuilt . . .

I tend to agree

[Cheddar Bob]

3 hours ago, K.I.T.T. said:

@Tonybandit, Cheese Bob is the forum oracle on all things IMS. See his thread below:

 

You missed out the string... I haven't apologised to you yet so it's still game.