Clutch and IMS

[Elmer Fudd]

Ok, so my 1999/2000 986 that I have just bought has 96000mls on the clock, should I consider having the clutch and IMS bearing done now or wait until the clutch actually goes, or not bother doing the IMS at all, is it all just hype?

I phoned JMG Porsche and they quoted ....... wait for it ......... £3000! 😬 That's for clutch, flywheel, IMS and rear seal. Although this is likely to be a keeper, I think that is taking the proverbial.

So, what to do 🤷‍♂️ The clutch is ok and bites half way up, although quite heavy, but I guess that's because it's a sports car? There is a small amount of oil under the engine but that might be from a leaking plug tube which I'm replacing soon 🤔 Opinions please, and if anyone knows of anywhere cheaper near'ish Norfolk, please let me know 😁  

[jonbad]

Having read up a tonne of info on this, I'd say get it checked out in terms of any visible oil leaks etc (you can do this yourself) and also is the clutch heavy or stiff? If it is fine and there's no audible noises from the engine in terms of rattle around the IMS bearing, then you could probably leave it until the clutch does need doing.

The other consideration here is your own peace of mind. Getting the work done, especially if you're keeping it, will possibly make ownership of the car more pleasurably knowing that potential trouble point has been resolved.

Lastly, some cars of that period had the dual-row bearing anyway and so might be stronger than the single-row that is weaker. That's not to say they don't go, but they are literally twice as hardy, which is reassuring. Others may know how to check/tell from your VIN number.

[Ninesomething]

You have someone plug in a diagnostic tool and check for camshaft variation. As the IMS wears the camshaft timing can go very slightly out of whack. If it's within tolerance there shouldn't be a problem. 

Like life however there are no cast iron guarantees.

[½cwt]

2 hours ago, Elmer Fudd said:

Ok, so my 1999/2000 986 that I have just bought has 96000mls on the clock, should I consider having the clutch and IMS bearing done now or wait until the clutch actually goes, or not bother doing the IMS at all, is it all just hype?

I phoned JMG Porsche and they quoted ....... wait for it ......... £3000! 😬 That's for clutch, flywheel, IMS and rear seal. Although this is likely to be a keeper, I think that is taking the proverbial.

So, what to do 🤷‍♂️ The clutch is ok and bites half way up, although quite heavy, but I guess that's because it's a sports car? There is a small amount of oil under the engine but that might be from a leaking plug tube which I'm replacing soon 🤔 Opinions please, and if anyone knows of anywhere cheaper near'ish Norfolk, please let me know 😁  

From the you have stated for your car you'll have the much less problematic dual row IMS bearing which has a significantly lower failure rate that the ones fitted from early 2001 in the middle of the 2001 model year.  If you car hasn't had a clutch then it will probably come up quite soon given your mileage. That will be the time to check it all out, get a new rear main seal (could be an oil leak source but oil tubes are most common) and if there is any doubt about the bearing, it is possible to get just the bearing from 123bearings. (I'll look up the link and pate it later).   The JMG price is about right if going for an oil fed or ceramic bearing kit that are available on the after market as well as a clutch and a flywheel.

[brillomaster]

how many miles are you planning on doing? i've just bought a 986 boxster on 73000 miles, no evidence of any clutch or IMS work. but on the other hand. i'm only planning on doing 3000 miles a year, and its my second car, so theres every possibility i'll be selling it in 5 years on 88000 miles, still without having done the clutch.

Personally, i wouldn't do the clutch as a preventative maintenance item. I'd fix it if/when it starts breaking.

And as for IMS, from what i understand is even if the grease goes, it continues to be lubricated by the engine oil. so the preventative action here is oil changes every 6000 miles, or every year, whichever is sooner.

[edc]

I'd do the clutch depending on your wallet and circumstances. If it's a daily or you planned a long trip or holiday I'd want to know the car is as solid as can be and won't wreck your plans. The clutch though doesn't tend to fail and leave you at the roadside. So you can take your chances. It does though get very heavy when it needs replacing. A new clutch is almost just like any other regular car in use. 

[TROOPER88]

No and No

You say the clutch feels ok and you have a double roll IMSB.

Having just changed one, it was a compete and utter waste of money and the prices aftermarket companies are charging is a scandal.

The only time I will change an IMSB again is if the car is a single roll bearing, I was doing the RMS and clutch anyway and there was evidence that the bearing was failing. 

Forget about IMS altogether and enjoy your 986 :) 

[½cwt]

As promised, if ever needed (if they fail the usually junk the engine...) this is the dual row replacement bearing:

Deep groove ball bearing - double rows bd20-17-a-ddua17nx01-nsk - 20x4 (123bearing.co.uk)

[Topbox]

6 hours ago, Elmer Fudd said:

I phoned JMG Porsche and they quoted ....... wait for it ......... £3000! 😬 That's for clutch, flywheel, IMS and rear seal.

Revolution Porsche in Yorkshire ask £1449 +VAT for IMS and a clutch. Although I having had a 986 myself, on a 96000 miler I think I'd leave well alone unless the clutch starts to slip as @TROOPER88suggests.

[red rocket]

Having the clutch, flywheel and RMS etc done on my 987 today, on approx 94k. Had two quotes for approx £1500  Agreed they would inspect IMS for play. My indy called to say there was more of an oil leak around the IMS than RMS but they are sealing it and not concerned.

[Elmer Fudd]

Ok, thanks guy's

The car was originally bought for the Mrs after looking for an MX5 for the summer, but for the same price of a decent MX5 I saw this boxster so I thought "hmm, I've always wanted a Porsche" 😄 so now it's kinda turned into a keeper after already spending a fair bit to get it to my liking, and deciding it's 'our car' 😂, well I don't see why I have to drive around in the Civic, while she swans around in a Porsche!

It will be used during the week by the Mrs but only for trips to the gym, which is only 5mls away, and the occasional trip to the supermarket, the rest of the time will be nice sunny weekends and hols in this country, although that will depend on MPG somewhat 😲😂. So I'm guessing around 3-5k per year.

After reading all your thoughts on the matter I've decided to leave the clutch/IMS until the clutch actually needs doing.

Fanks 🤪   

 

[Steve Laming]

Mine's booked for early May to have the clutch & IMS bearing changed.

I have thought long and hard about this (whether to just change the clutch) and decided that as it's apart, might as well get it done. My car has done about 93k miles and the clutch is VERY heavy. You get used to it, but when jumping back in the Cayman, my foot nearly goes through the floor, as muscle memory from the 986 kicks in ! LOL.

Mine is a 2001 model and the engine number would suggest the early dual row bearing is installed. 

Speaking to an Indy yesterday, they said they had an early 996 (dual row bearing) in for repair. The bearing had gone taking a couple of cylinders with it. £17k estimate to repair !

I've had mine four years now and only average 2500 to 4500 per year. Last year (between MOT's) 693 miles ! Covid 19 put paid to getting it out of the garage.

[TROOPER88]

52 minutes ago, Steve Laming said:

Mine's booked for early May to have the clutch & IMS bearing changed.

I have thought long and hard about this (whether to just change the clutch) and decided that as it's apart, might as well get it done. My car has done about 93k miles and the clutch is VERY heavy. You get used to it, but when jumping back in the Cayman, my foot nearly goes through the floor, as muscle memory from the 986 kicks in ! LOL.

Mine is a 2001 model and the engine number would suggest the early dual row bearing is installed. 

Speaking to an Indy yesterday, they said they had an early 996 (dual row bearing) in for repair. The bearing had gone taking a couple of cylinders with it. £17k estimate to repair !

I've had mine four years now and only average 2500 to 4500 per year. Last year (between MOT's) 693 miles ! Covid 19 put paid to getting it out of the garage.

17K or pick up a second hand engine for £1500.

When they do yours Steve, ask them for the IMSB back and give us your opinion.

Good luck with the work 

[Ninesomething]

4 hours ago, Elmer Fudd said:

 

 😄 😂

It will be used during the week by the Mrs but only for trips to the gym, which is only 5mls away, and the occasional trip to the supermarket,😲😂

🤪

Best get it booked in for a new clutch then.......

 

[Steve Laming]

2 hours ago, TROOPER88 said:

17K or pick up a second hand engine for £1500.

When they do yours Steve, ask them for the IMSB back and give us your opinion.

Good luck with the work 

You know better than me. Can you get a 996 engine for £1500 ? If you can, do you put it straight in the car or strip it and check the cam chain, cam tensioners, IMS, bores etc. Whats the hours for dropping and installing the two motors?

I know what your saying, but you do your own work, so in effect can factor out the labour aspect (if it's your car).

Yes, I will ask them for the old IMS bearing and have a fiddle with it !

[edc]

This is the issue of you can call it that with a replacement engine. You go back to square one and the fitted cost is not a million miles from a normal rebuild cost. £17k seems extremely high. Then as usual you have budget creep and find a way to justify a bit more for a rebuild which supposedly gives longer term reliability. 

I can understand it from an owner perspective that if you've had a failure you will be worried about another so a straight replacement where the same can happen again on a less known engine can be seen as a negative. 

[Steve Laming]

Yes, I agree the £17k rebuild bill is quite high. I think Hartech do it for upwards of £2.5k. BUT this would be on a perfectly working engine, so any broken/worn components would then have to be replaced, as you said, escalating the cost.

I don't know what the specialists' customer has gone for. He might have elected for a new block from Porsche plus all the stuff needed to rebuild. I would assume the cost to include VAT as well.

Most of the stuff I have read suggests a 996 will be in the region of £8k to £12k to repair/rebuild, so add a bit of VAT on top and your not too far away from £17k.

When you then consider the car is worth (before it went bang) £15k ? It's a massive headache to have.

Just to clarify, this was just a phone conversion with this specialist, my car is being done by another Porsche specialist.

[bally4563]

1 hour ago, Steve Laming said:

Yes, I agree the £17k rebuild bill is quite high. I think Hartech do it for upwards of £2.5k. BUT this would be on a perfectly working engine, so any broken/worn components would then have to be replaced, as you said, escalating the cost.

I don't know what the specialists' customer has gone for. He might have elected for a new block from Porsche plus all the stuff needed to rebuild. I would assume the cost to include VAT as well.

Most of the stuff I have read suggests a 996 will be in the region of £8k to £12k to repair/rebuild, so add a bit of VAT on top and your not too far away from £17k.

When you then consider the car is worth (before it went bang) £15k ? It's a massive headache to have.

Just to clarify, this was just a phone conversion with this specialist, my car is being done by another Porsche specialist.

I would have said at that price the crank shaft got stuffed which cannot be reground , so new crank for a start

[TROOPER88]

1 hour ago, Steve Laming said:

You know better than me. Can you get a 996 engine for £1500 ? If you can, do you put it straight in the car or strip it and check the cam chain, cam tensioners, IMS, bores etc. Whats the hours for dropping and installing the two motors?

I know what your saying, but you do your own work, so in effect can factor out the labour aspect (if it's your car).

Yes, I will ask them for the old IMS bearing and have a fiddle with it !

Can not comment on 996's as this is not my area.

Are you Surrey based Steve? If so call by for a chat and a coffee anytime and I will show the IMSB that I just removed.

How companies like EPS can charge £500 for a bearing is utter scandalous when an identical bearing as used by Porsche can be had for less than £50. 

IMS is one of those things that has been blown way, way out of proportion. In some ways it can be deemed a good thing as it makes the cars as affordable as what they are. 

I know many on this site have purchased 5-6k or less 986's and are running them on a shoe string. Had a lot of people not been put of by the horror stories, prices would be higher.

You also have to take the advice that you get on the forums with a large pinch of salt as lots of people offer advice without having real life experience of changing these parts and working on the cars; I am not having a go about anyone in particular.

 

 

[the baron]

My car has done 210k miles and is on the same clutch and IMS, yes it has the duel row, I’m having the clutch changed next week but leaving the IMS unless it is showing signs when inspected.

I would say they are around £1000 over priced compared to other good indies for what you have been quoted

[½cwt]

I won't say the dual row is bullet proof but according to the class action suit in the US on the IMSB, the failure rate for the single row later bearing was possibly as high as 8%, the dual row <1%.  If replacing apparently alignment is the issue and it has to be properly seated, but to fit a bearing in a 15/16" deep bore (yes, the dual row is an imperial width even if bore and outer diameters are metric) and not get it straight would be virtually impossible or do enough damage to write-off the casting it was forced into by an incompetent fitter.

The main thing is people will sell you after market upgraded IMSB kits plus labour to fit (See Wheeler Dealers 996 cabrio episode form a couple of years ago), not just change the basic bearing. 

Also for a bit more info on this issue, look up the Pedro's Garage video on the IMSB on his website or on YouTube. DIY Projects (pedrosgarage.com)

[½cwt]

11 minutes ago, the baron said:

My car has done 210k miles and is on the same clutch and IMS, yes it has the duel row, I’m having the clutch changed next week but leaving the IMS unless it is showing signs when inspected.

I would say they are around £1000 over priced compared to other good indies for what you have been quoted

I was sad enough to work out how many billion rotations this bearing must have done several month back IIRC...

[the baron]

8 minutes ago, ½cwt said:

I was sad enough to work out how many billion rotations this bearing must have done several month back IIRC...

I remember, that was impressive mathematics 

[Steve Laming]

1 hour ago, TROOPER88 said:

Can not comment on 996's as this is not my area.

Are you Surrey based Steve? If so call by for a chat and a coffee anytime and I will show the IMSB that I just removed.

How companies like EPS can charge £500 for a bearing is utter scandalous when an identical bearing as used by Porsche can be had for less than £50. 

IMS is one of those things that has been blown way, way out of proportion. In some ways it can be deemed a good thing as it makes the cars as affordable as what they are. 

I know many on this site have purchased 5-6k or less 986's and are running them on a shoe string. Had a lot of people not been put of by the horror stories, prices would be higher.

You also have to take the advice that you get on the forums with a large pinch of salt as lots of people offer advice without having real life experience of changing these parts and working on the cars; I am not having a go about anyone in particular.

 

 

Tea for me please !

Yes, Surrey based. Send me a PM if you like and I will pop over sometime to compare meercats, sorry IMS bearings.

I've just read an article in 911 & Porsche World re Hartech. Now according to him, because of my mileage, my cylinders will probably be oval and it's time for an engine rebuild. !

I got mine 4 years ago for a very good price of £4250.

My running total, including purchase price and the up coming clutch, comes in at £12k.

Now, I bought my car to enjoy on trackdays, and as such, it gets more servicing (oil changes, etc) than the mileage would suggest. I have replaced items which were looking worn and things that were worn out. But, this car (at the moment) is a long term keeper, hence the outlay. It still makes me smile when I get in it.

Just a quick question, why don't the independents' use the £50 bearing and always promote the  EPS & LN etc, instead. Even if they put a mark up on it, say retail for £100, I'm sure most clutch replacements would then include an IMS swop. Plus the extra hour or so labour they can charge. Bonkers !

[edc]

I think it's perception and research that's the issue for the cheaper bearings. Indy's can point to a marketing backed product and company for the aftermarket bearings aimed at the IMS market. 

The other bearings although from the main bearing manufacturers are effectively untried and untested. It would take a brave indy to say this is the same spec bearing that Porsche would have built your engine with.