Are we tyre snobs?

[Freeman]

11 hours ago, Tengocity said:

I’d hate to think what other corners are being cut in the upkeep of these cars if stretching to a decent set of tyres is a struggle.

Thinking on how you spend the money does not mean that you do not maintain the car. Recognising your needs and matching them does not mean that you cut corners. Have a look at the table and pay attention to the Goodyear tyres, they are not the most expansive yet in my opinion provide the best results and have better ratings than the Michelin, however, the Michelins are N. 

[el 3.2S]

11 hours ago, Freeman said:

Thinking on how you spend the money does not mean that you do not maintain the car. Recognising your needs and matching them does not mean that you cut corners. Have a look at the table and pay attention to the Goodyear tyres, they are not the most expansive yet in my opinion provide the best results and have better ratings than the Michelin, however, the Michelins are N. 

Quite.

There are some extremely misguided comments from certain individuals on here. Unbelievable really.

[Tengocity]

10 hours ago, Freeman said:

Thinking on how you spend the money does not mean that you do not maintain the car. Recognising your needs and matching them does not mean that you cut corners. Have a look at the table and pay attention to the Goodyear tyres, they are not the most expansive yet in my opinion provide the best results and have better ratings than the Michelin, however, the Michelins are N. 

I never said it was. Everyone has to balance out all their costs in life, whether it's apportioning spend to car vs house vs holidays or whatever, and then within car costs there is balance to be had.

So to clarify, there is a difference between premium tyres and cheapo ones, and having actually looked at the spreadsheet, and seen that the debate is really about folk being snobby about the upper end I realise my comments are not aligned with this, as it's more about my own pet hate of folk putting cr*p tyres on good cars. Apologies for that!

So if I saw a car being sold with rubbish tyres I would have alarm bells going off, but I see now this is not the debate here.

Anyone running a used 987 on a reasonable budget looking at any of these tyres seems fine, and I struggle to believe anyone would have a real gripe or snobbishness about them. 

However, looking specifically at the table, I would question whether these criteria are reflective of what many folk driving a performance car would consider, and missing certain key attributes which are tested more thoroughly in comprehensive tyre reviews and comparisons. As a weekend car for spirited drives with the roof down, the rolling resistance, road noise are fairly irrelevant surely, compared to how the tyre may facilitate the car performing it's best? Load rating, speed rating, XL are all the same, so perhaps braking efficiency is the only relevant one? However, anyone who reads tyre reviews will know that many tyres can be great at braking in dry but not wet, and the tyre that's best in one may not be in the other. Equally, one tyre can be good at braking in wet, but not good at resisting aquaplaning. 

Then, consider we are talking about Porsche's here, cars built for driving enjoyment and performance, so to not consider subjective feel and outright performance seems to miss the point, in which case the £150 difference (all 4 corners replaced) to go from a mid range tyre to a top tyres in that context makes little sense to me. In that regard, I would say I am a tyre snob.

If someone has a different use for their car then I get that, but then I don't get why anyone feels the need to justify that to anyone else either.

Going back to the specifics of that table. I don't care too much about N ratings having discussed it at the 987 tech seminar with the PCGB last month. The reality is that Porsche won't take the effort to test newer tyres, so each model is stuck with older N rated tyres (N ratings are for specific models of Porsche, not all Porsches), when tyre technology has moved on considerably. So I would much rather have the Pilot Super Sport on my car than the relatively ancient PS2 that is N rated. 

If you want to go with Goodyears then there are enough good reviews to say that it's a good tyre, and a lot more comprehensive than what's on the table. Will it be the best, probably not, but if you're not using the car that way then who cares.

 

[Tengocity]

22 hours ago, Nobbie said:

I think you're setting up a strawman there, I'm not sure anyone is recommending sticking the cheapest tyres they can find on a Boxster. A tyre snob in my opinion is one of those who makes pronouncements about only fitting N rated, or the most expensive tyre to their car from a position of ignorance about tyre performance. Many of those same people will not change to winter tyres because they probably think being expensive makes the tyre great in all conditions. Their arguments about safety are then seen for the cant they are.

Give it 5 years and most Chinese brands will be mid range and we'll be dissing Vietnamese ditch finders.

Yes I see that now.

I'm not sure I'd call what you describe a Tyre snob, more just an ignoramous! I would say I am tyre snob, but I run winter tyres on both our daily drivers (Pilot Alpins in true tyre snob style), and have no real consideration of N ratings. Maybe I am tyre afficianado? ?

[Tengocity]

15 hours ago, Araf said:

I drive a Porsche despite the badge - not because of it.

I don't see myself as a tyre snob.  I have N rated tyres on the Porsche because I'm under extended warranty, but otherwise I am more than happy to listen to what others consider are the best for my needs before buying new Michelins.  

And that would genuinely seem to be the only reason to on older models of Porsche!

I'm with you on Michelins... Like another poster I just can't get on with Pirellis, and having had various on company cars over the years I've found Michelin to have consistently been the most enjoyable to have on my cars.

[Tengocity]

11 hours ago, Freeman said:

Some years ago another driver played with me, when I tried to over take him he accelerated, when there was an opposite traffic he slowed down. I have done something very very very (and many more very) stupid, I mounted a pavement and nearly killed a toddler in a pram. These days, when I see red I remember this stupidity of mine and make sure that my brain is in gear. There is no need to drive like an hooligan in order to enjoy the ride.

Sorry, I am not sure where anyone said anything about driving like a hooligan?

Surely if you've got that tendency in you then fitting the best tyres you can get would be a good thing to do to ensure you don't lose control of your car if you do lose control of your emotions?

[Araf]

2 hours ago, Tengocity said:

And that would genuinely seem to be the only reason to on older models of Porsche!

I'm with you on Michelins... Like another poster I just can't get on with Pirellis, and having had various on company cars over the years I've found Michelin to have consistently been the most enjoyable to have on my cars.

Pireilis have worked well for me when new but seem to lose grip from about half worn.

Try Uniroyal Rainsports.  They have been my go-to tyre for quite a few years now and though the side walls are very pliant, they have worked on everything I've put them on.
No coincidence that Michelin have owned Uniroyal since 1990.

[Willemite]

Tyres are incredibly important it determining how your car drives, how the steering feels, how well it stops, how progressive it is etc

youve bought a sports car In which you have sacrificed practicality for driving pleasure and performance so you could assume that you’d be interested in getting the best driving experience. 

How are you going to choose which tyres to put on?

You could choose a tyre which the manufacture of your car and the tyre manufacturer have developed and tweaked to suit your model of car, and then tested to extremis. ( the N marked option) In which case you’ll be using the best tyre that was available for your car when it was new and will suit your car extremely well. 

( I believe that in one test at the time in was new the 987 Boxster S had the shoterst braking distance of any car tested, and I was on N rated Michelin PS2s )

You could decide to save a bit of money and go for another tyre, and you have no idea other than the option if the man in the pub / forum of whether this tyre will be any good on your car. Someone might say that they’ve got these and they seem fine, but have they properly tested them or compared them properly? So you take a gamble. Your car might feel ok but you don’t know if it could feel a lot better with better tyres. So your enjoyment could be compromised. Plus, you might one day need that few feet shorter stopping distance.  You might only need it once.

Third option is to acknowledge that tyre technology has moved on since your car was new. Several well conducted magazine tests have found the Michelin PS4S to be excellent and anecdotal opinion seems to suggest that it does indeed work well on mid engined Porsches. But note, it’s not the basic PS4 which is getting good reviews, it has to be the PS4S which is a very different tyre.

your car, your choice. 

[Freeman]

3 hours ago, Willemite said:

Third option is to acknowledge that tyre technology has moved on since your car was new. Several well conducted magazine tests have found the Michelin PS4S to be excellent and anecdotal opinion seems to suggest that it does indeed work well on mid engined Porsches. But note, it’s not the basic PS4 which is getting good reviews, it has to be the PS4S which is a very different tyre.

Found this, interesting read https://www.carthrottle.com/post/michelin-pilot-sport-4-s-review-the-new-top-dog-of-the-tyre-world/

[Freeman]

Just found that 18" PS4S are not available in Europe so even if I want I can't have them. Then the article above suggests that the Goodyear required 10cm more than the PS4S to stop, in reality the same.  

[That986]

I can never understand the "buy premium car, put the cheapest components on to keep it on the road" mentality. I see it on all forums and not just tyres, oil is a good one as well as brake pads and discs. 

Seems to be that people want to skimp on the things that keep you going in the same direction but will spend money on shiny trinkets and go-faster doodads. 

[PaulQ]

50 minutes ago, That986 said:

I can never understand the "buy premium car, put the cheapest components on to keep it on the road" mentality.

No one on here is saying this, but you know that anyway. 

[That986]

39 minutes ago, PaulQ said:

No one on here is saying this, but you know that anyway. 

I do, but it constantly amazes me how people skimp on the few things that keep you and your car alive. 

Even my humble Up has Castrol Edge and Dunlop SportMaxx tyres on. 

[Patt]

My take:  too often people link the value of the car with the value of consumables, rather than the value of a life, or less dramatically - the value of enjoyment whilst driving.

[Gdaybruce]

27 minutes ago, That986 said:

I do, but it constantly amazes me how people skimp on the few things that keep you and your car alive. 

Even my humble Up has Castrol Edge and Dunlop SportMaxx tyres on. 

I'm with you on this. My daily Mondeo is worth little in terms of market value but I'm adding the miles at the rate of some 20k per annum. How it drives therefore matters and since I bought it I've fitted  4 new Ford supplied dampers, 4 x Michelin Cross Climate tyres and replaced all discs and pads with either Ford supplied or Brembo items. I also had a full alignment check done when I bought it. Plus, I use Mobil 1 oil and Ford filters. The result is that notwithstanding that it now has some 126k on the clock it is still goes, stops and steers as Ford intended. The paintwork has a few marks and to most people it's just an old Mondeo - it's an ST220 but only an enthusiast would recognise that fact or know what it means. Most of the time I'm just commuting and going with the flow but on occasion it's rather satisfying to surprise the odd Audi owner (to take a random example!) with a burst of acceleration or speed into a corner.

[That986]

1 hour ago, Gdaybruce said:

I'm with you on this. My daily Mondeo is worth little in terms of market value but I'm adding the miles at the rate of some 20k per annum. How it drives therefore matters and since I bought it I've fitted  4 new Ford supplied dampers, 4 x Michelin Cross Climate tyres and replaced all discs and pads with either Ford supplied or Brembo items. I also had a full alignment check done when I bought it. Plus, I use Mobil 1 oil and Ford filters. The result is that notwithstanding that it now has some 126k on the clock it is still goes, stops and steers as Ford intended. The paintwork has a few marks and to most people it's just an old Mondeo - it's an ST220 but only an enthusiast would recognise that fact or know what it means. Most of the time I'm just commuting and going with the flow but on occasion it's rather satisfying to surprise the odd Audi owner (to take a random example!) with a burst of acceleration or speed into a corner.

Glad to hear there is like-minded people out there. I have a saying "look after a car and it will look after you when you need it most" and that's how all my cars get treated. My old beetle had 186k on it when it sold and it was as strong as ever, the new owner still drives it daily so i would assume it's hit 200k and more now.  

My old boxster might not have been shiny enough for some but underneath pretty much everything bar dampers got replaced under my 21 months of ownership. I just like to know i have a car i can jump in and travel across Europe tomorrow if i want to.  

But i digress.....

[Purdie]

6 hours ago, That986 said:

I have a saying "look after a car and it will look after you"

Isn't that what Trigger said about his brush ?

[AliBaba987]

I am scared of putting anything less than premium tyres,

[Freeman]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 7:36 AM, That986 said:

I can never understand the "buy premium car, put the cheapest components on to keep it on the road" mentality. I see it on all forums and not just tyres, oil is a good one as well as brake pads and discs. 

Seems to be that people want to skimp on the things that keep you going in the same direction but will spend money on shiny trinkets and go-faster doodads. 

I think that you generalised and reach conclusions that are based on???

In the last 4 months I have replaced the front springs, rebuilt the front suspension system, replaced all shock absorbers, rear brakes and pads, repaired lighting, the front and rear bonet struts, exhaust clamps, all fluieds were changed and the car was serviced although there was no need as it was done less than 2 years ago and ~ 2000 miles (might be a bit more, not sure) effectively anything that the garage (a respected independent) found wrong with the car was replaced. Yet you find it reasonable to pass a judgment on the car and the owner's attitude based on his choice of tyres. As said before, I have Michelin at the back and Hankook at the front (this is how the car was bought). Great driving and handling characteristics.

[EXY]

2 minutes ago, Freeman said:

I think that you generalised and reach conclusions that are based on???

In the last 4 months I have replaced the front springs, rebuilt the front suspension system, replaced all shock absorbers, rear brakes and pads, repaired lighting, the front and rear bonet struts, exhaust clamps, all fluieds were changed and the car was serviced although there was no need as it was done less than 2 years ago and ~ 2000 miles (might be a bit more, not sure) effectively anything that the garage (a respected independent) found wrong with the car was replaced. Yet you find it reasonable to pass a judgment on the car and the owner's attitude based on his choice of tyres. As said before, I have Michelin at the back and Hankook at the front (this is how the car was bought). Great driving and handling characteristics.

LOL, want to buy some magic beans

Garages MUST just love to see you drive up through their unfeasibly large windows

I thought it was by common consent on here that you can tell the 'cut of their jib' just by what tyres an owner has fitted 

[Freeman]

EXY

Not really as I gave them a list of what I want to do, some of the items were not required  yet I wanted them done. I asked them to check the car and advice what they find. Their list was very short. This is my way of dealing with people, it is based on trust and respect, to date, only one person let me down. Any business that worked hard for its reputation will not cheat you and risk its reputation for small money. 

[Araf]

1 hour ago, Freeman said:

As said before, I have Michelin at the back and Hankook at the front (this is how the car was bought). Great driving and handling characteristics.

How do you know?  

[That986]

9 hours ago, Freeman said:

I think that you generalised and reach conclusions that are based on???

In the last 4 months I have replaced the front springs, rebuilt the front suspension system, replaced all shock absorbers, rear brakes and pads, repaired lighting, the front and rear bonet struts, exhaust clamps, all fluieds were changed and the car was serviced although there was no need as it was done less than 2 years ago and ~ 2000 miles (might be a bit more, not sure) effectively anything that the garage (a respected independent) found wrong with the car was replaced. Yet you find it reasonable to pass a judgment on the car and the owner's attitude based on his choice of tyres. As said before, I have Michelin at the back and Hankook at the front (this is how the car was bought). Great driving and handling characteristics.

It was a LARGE generalisation on what you see on a lot of forums over my time of owning various different cars. And yes, if I saw ling-long tyres on a future purchase when i went to view it then it would call into question what else the owner the owner has skimped on.  For instance on the Up! owners forum they're talking about using Costco oil in cars what should have VW spec longlife oil in. 

If that offends you then so be it but that's how I look and think about a car, it's the same if the inside is full of garbage and cr*p everywhere. If i get in a car and it stinks, i walk away. If the alloys are corroded i'll walk. If the oil is only half up the dipstick, i'll walk. Rattly exhaust, walk away. There are various indicators to how well someone does or doesn't look after a car. I won't apologise for it. And in all honesty if you've bought or are buying a premium brand car like a Porsche and expecting to run it on a shoestring you may as well advertise it now. 

[Nobbie]

21 hours ago, AliBaba987 said:

I am scared of putting anything less than premium tyres,

That's fair enough, if you don't have the knowledge to make an informed choice about a safety critical item such as a tyre, it makes sense to go with a big name brand as you are less likely to get a duff set. When I got mine, that's the position I was in and so went with N rated. However, the more you know, the more you are able to balance the different attributes of the tyre to suit your requirements. It's like the (very) old adage - 'nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM', you may just end up paying more than needed.

[EXY]

3 hours ago, Nobbie said:

That's fair enough, if you don't have the knowledge to make an informed choice about a safety critical item such as a tyre, it makes sense to go with a big name brand as you are less likely to get a duff set. When I got mine, that's the position I was in and so went with N rated. However, the more you know, the more you are able to balance the different attributes of the tyre to suit your requirements. It's like the (very) old adage - 'nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM', you may just end up paying more than needed.

Watched a film a while back where an underlying got fired for stating what 'IBM' stands for