toplad Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 A evocative title I know, not deliberately trying to annoy I have driven a few 3.4's now and the cars feel too slow for 295hp, having had a few Boxster's I know how to drive them. The engine is very smooth and with a kick around 4500 revs when things get more interesting, you have to keep the revs up for it to feel quick, but even in this zone it feels a bit flat to me. The Boxster's I've driven have been stood for a while and I'm wondering if they might need a bit of an 'Italian tune up' to actually feel the full benefit Around 300 BHP is a pretty healthy number and I'd expect a 987 3.4 S to feel quick, top speed is a claimed 169, not sure what sort run that would require, a very long one. I'm really keen on owing a Boxster again, but every time I drive one, I'm slightly disappointed with the performance, I know it's not all about straight line speed with the Boxster, but have things moved on so much that 295 BHP isn't enough? I'm really conflicted as I want one, they sound and look great, but can't decide, thoughts really appreciated Please don't flame me as I'm really interested in Porsche's and owning one again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMA Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 What have you been diving before trying the 3.4s? If its a big turbo'd modern hot hatch or big turbo diesel engine you will find it feels slow as it takes a while for the NA engine to get up to power band, where as the turbo'd stuff have low down torque so you get the big push in the back straight away so it "feels" faster.... My Audi 3.0V6 Diesel "feels" faster than my 981 3.4s but in real terms it's not quicker, just "feels" like it is due to 500nm of torque getting well planted through all 4 wheels straight away give you the initial feeling of speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoporsche Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 The standard equation is ideal power = what you have now + 25%. Boxsters were never about speed, they were about handling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toplad Posted June 14, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 55 minutes ago, CMA said: What have you been diving before trying the 3.4s? If its a big turbo'd modern hot hatch or big turbo diesel engine you will find it feels slow as it takes a while for the NA engine to get up to power band, where as the turbo'd stuff have low down torque so you get the big push in the back straight away so it "feels" faster.... My Audi 3.0V6 Diesel "feels" faster than my 981 3.4s but in real terms it's not quicker, just "feels" like it is due to 500nm of torque getting well planted through all 4 wheels straight away give you the initial feeling of speed. CMA, Thanks for the reply I have a scirocco R, which is tuned to 310bhp/320Tq's. I am not comparing the Boxster to it, because as you say Torque makes a car feel fast I know what you mean however, it feels as if the 987 takes to long to get in the power band. Without comparing the two cars I just thought 295bhp is enough power to make it feel faster than it is. The BMW E46 M3, which I have also owned has very similar on paper performance to the 3.4 987 S, but it feels a lot slower to 100 and generally less ballistic in every part of the rev range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TV8 Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 The Boxster and the Sciroco should be similar kerb weight so it will probably be lower torque on the Boxster that makes the difference. You should try 326 bhp and 370 lb of torque with 1000kg if you want a sensation of speed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toplad Posted June 14, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 1 minute ago, TV8 said: The Boxster and the Sciroco should be similar kerb weight so it will probably be lower torque on the Boxster that makes the difference. You should try 326 bhp and 370 lb of torque with 1000kg if you want a sensation of speed I will if that's an offer, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenman Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 1 hour ago, CMA said: What have you been diving before trying the 3.4s? If its a big turbo'd modern hot hatch or big turbo diesel engine you will find it feels slow as it takes a while for the NA engine to get up to power band, where as the turbo'd stuff have low down torque so you get the big push in the back straight away so it "feels" faster.... My Audi 3.0V6 Diesel "feels" faster than my 981 3.4s but in real terms it's not quicker, just "feels" like it is due to 500nm of torque getting well planted through all 4 wheels straight away give you the initial feeling of speed. ^^This most people are now accustomed to turbo diesel repmobiles or hot hatches which in the past 10 years have gone from adequate performance to very high levels of low down torque and 80s Supercar levels of push. If this is important to you then you would need to look at the 718 (funds permitting). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMA Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 1 hour ago, toplad said: CMA, Thanks for the reply I have a scirocco R, which is tuned to 310bhp/320Tq's. I am not comparing the Boxster to it, because as you say Torque makes a car feel fast I know what you mean however, it feels as if the 987 takes to long to get in the power band. Without comparing the two cars I just thought 295bhp is enough power to make it feel faster than it is. The BMW E46 M3, which I have also owned has very similar on paper performance to the 3.4 987 S, but it feels a lot slower to 100 and generally less ballistic in every part of the rev range. I came from having a kitcar that had 102bhp Xflow engine and weighed 650kgs.... and was only a few inches from the floor with no sound proofing, no creature comforts, no roof, no heater, etc. It rattled, squeaked and you felt everything on the road through the wheel and seats. That felt like the fastest car ever. More visibility and less refinement also add to the effect of speed. The Boxster has the poise and handling of nothing I've ever driven before, making speed seem effortless, but does that make it "feel" slower too? Also with the newer turbo'd cars people have got used to having the power low down and not used the hearing the engine revving it's nuts off so people change up gear quicker as that's what they have got used to, therefore missing out on the power band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toplad Posted June 14, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 Does anyone think that cars are not being driven much and not being rev'ed as intended has anything to do with it? The good old Italian tune up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TV8 Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 4 hours ago, toplad said: I will if that's an offer, I used let people drive my old one but haven't offered this one out yet - it is a bit scary to be honest and traction is a problem. The owners manual has a great warning: "Words of caution are necessary...the high torque to weight ratio of the car endows the car with unusually effective in-gear performance. This, on early acquaintance can lead to approaching obstacles at higher speeds than imagined. Similarly, the levels of grip are so high that when the tyres do lose adhesion the cornering speeds will be very high requiring unusually quick reactions and skill" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoporsche Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 Nice. I have to get a business card printed with "This person is endowed with unusually effective performance. This can lead to early acquaintance at higher speeds than imagined." At my age, anything's worth a try... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaykay495 Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 3 hours ago, toplad said: Does anyone think that cars are not being driven much and not being rev'ed as intended has anything to do with it? The good old Italian tune up? Scirocco R and 987S weight very nearly the same. If your car makes 300+, then it’ll be slightly quicker in a straight-line than an S. There’s no ignoring the physics of a power to weight ratio. There is also no ignoring the benefits of mid-engine, so the theory is that all the pace you put on in the S, you get to carry through the bends ? Last car but one for me was an S3 with stage 1. My little 2.7 987 would tie it in knots on the B roads. Its the twisties where Boxsters come alive....for me anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattman42 Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 Have you tried a newer model? The spec for my 2010 3.4S says it has 310 bhp and with the PDK Sport Chrono launch control the 0-60 is 4.7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoporsche Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 Just adding 15bhp will barely be noticed. Driveability or mid range may help. Lightweight flywheel for example, or GT3 TB plus careful remap. Tweaking the geo can also make it feel more responsive. Perceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toplad Posted June 14, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 2 hours ago, TV8 said: I used let people drive my old one but haven't offered this one out yet - it is a bit scary to be honest and traction is a problem. The owners manual has a great warning: "Words of caution are necessary...the high torque to weight ratio of the car endows the car with unusually effective in-gear performance. This, on early acquaintance can lead to approaching obstacles at higher speeds than imagined. Similarly, the levels of grip are so high that when the tyres do lose adhesion the cornering speeds will be very high requiring unusually quick reactions and skill" Tbh, I already know what it's like because I've had a TVR myself( 0-100 in 9.1 seconds) and have been in porsche 918, latest 911 Turbo S too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toplad Posted June 14, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Jaykay495 said: Scirocco R and 987S weight very nearly the same. If your car makes 300+, then it’ll be slightly quicker in a straight-line than an S. There’s no ignoring the physics of a power to weight ratio. There is also no ignoring the benefits of mid-engine, so the theory is that all the pace you put on in the S, you get to carry through the bends ? Last car but one for me was an S3 with stage 1. My little 2.7 987 would tie it in knots on the B roads. Its the twisties where Boxsters come alive....for me anyway. The scirocco is a lot quicker once rolling to be honest. It's the Torque, not the bhp it endows the car with massive in gear performance Although I'm not really interested in comparing the cars, I just expect 295 bhp to feel fast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lonewolfgjp Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 It’s true what you say about torque. A friend of mine has a S3 with the stage 2+ and it throws you back in the seat and makes lots of noise but when you look down at the speedo you aren’t actually going that fast. We were out on the same roads where I take mine and I would normally be doing the same speed if not a touch more without all the noise and drama ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bally4563 Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 2 hours ago, Jaykay495 said: Scirocco R and 987S weight very nearly the same. If your car makes 300+, then it’ll be slightly quicker in a straight-line than an S. There’s no ignoring the physics of a power to weight ratio. There is also no ignoring the benefits of mid-engine, so the theory is that all the pace you put on in the S, you get to carry through the bends ? Last car but one for me was an S3 with stage 1. My little 2.7 987 would tie it in knots on the B roads. Its the twisties where Boxsters come alive....for me anyway. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon_R Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 Same for me, bought for the handling, the noise over 4K revs & as a very nice step up from my old MX5 track day set up as that wasn’t getting the use as too compromised for the road Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackbatchew Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 I have to say I think your post title says it all. I have a 3.4S and I agree it doesn’t make you go wow that’s amazingly fast. And yet... as a proposition to enjoy driving I think it takes some beating. I had an F80 M3 as well until recently and that was crazy fast but the reality was it felt too quick (for me anyway and never thought I would say that). So if you want something that is going to make you giggle at its turn of speed it’s not the car for you. Maybe scratch the crazy fast car itch first and then possibly return to the boxster ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaykay495 Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 11 hours ago, toplad said: ...but have things moved on so much that 295 BHP isn't enough? In a word, yes ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moneypit Posted June 14, 2018 Report Share Posted June 14, 2018 Not long after I bought my first 987 3.2S 2.5 years ago or so, I had a run out in it on roads I knew well. I pulled out to overtake a car on a long straight and was appalled at the lack of performance. I doubt there was anything wrong with the car, but I've had another car with 400 ft/lbs of turbocharged torque for about 15 years, and by comparison that Boxster was a real adjustment. I've got a different 3.2S now with more miles, it feels significantly more lively than the first for some reason, possibly simply because it's been driven harder on a more regular basis than my first one. It tends to be able to hit 150 with relative ease, I'm often surprised by how quick this one feels. It's odd, because usually a car starts to feel slower when you've owned it for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBD914 v2 Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 I have a 981S and an M140i. The M140 is very quick with explosive acceleration from its 3.0 litre tubocharged engine at virtually any revs, loads of torque everywhere means accessing the power is easy. Easy power makes you lazy though! Jumping into my 981, if I drive it the same way, it feels somewhat flat. Then I remember that it needs revs, plenty of them in order to access the power. Above 4000 revs the 981 is very quick, just needs to be driven differently. However put both cars on a twisty road and the 981 will leave the torquey M140i in its dust! Nothing handles like a Boxster, it's combination of looks, speed, affordability, comfort snd practicality are untouchable in my opinion. Yeah sometimes I wish the power came in earlier - but then I would miss out on the addictive howl as it comes on stream at 4000 revs! Addictive is what this car is! Enjoy it for what it is, not for what you wish it was... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
911-32 Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 OP - If a Boxster is too slow for you, buy something else. We don't need convince everyone to buy Boxsters Try to find Richard Meaden's column in the latest edition of Evo - he writes about weaning himself off 500hp cars and about a 70th anniversary drive with Porsche GB in his own 964RS, a 356 and a 991.2 GT3RS. He describes the thrills of getting the most from the little 100hp, skinny tyred 356 and similarly his "only 260hp" RS compared to the GT3. To paraphrase, he says you are always looking in your mirrors after wringing out the GT3 to make sure you haven't been caught or you are always driving it at half throttle. He says, he wouldn't own a GT3RS as much as he loves driving one. I agree with his sentiment and his question of when manufacturers will stop the hp race and concentrate on the real thrill of driving? His current car is a VW UP Gti. For me - coming out of a 475hp 996TT and currently owning a 450hp 930 - the Boxster is just about right for fun driving. It does come alive with a little lightening, stiffer suspension, smaller wheels and a smidgen more hp. The longer 1st and 2nd gears in the 3.4 do it no favours, but it is a very well judged package. As I started, if you don't "get" that, no problem. Not everyone has to like Boxsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike597 Posted June 15, 2018 Report Share Posted June 15, 2018 Boxsters aren't particularly quick. Just this morning I joined the motorway with a Mercedes estate in front of me. He was flat out as far from around 30 mph as I could tell and I was just keeping with him to just about the speed limit (ahem) when he backed it off. It was cla 350 so bottom of the cla range. Having checked online since it makes 60 in 5.7 pretty much the same as my boxster. If a bottom of the range estate car is as quick as a porsche, albeit 17 years older, then of course they won't feel quick. They're not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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