Mattman42 Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Darkstar said: My thoughts exactly. I prefer the fun of driving and changing gear with a clutch is what I enjoy. All new cars are going automatic so its fun to still have one manual car. I suppose its a bit like being driven round the Nuremburg ring by the Stig. It would be great fun but you would still ask can I have a go now. A PDK is like having the Stig changing gear for you An auto box is one step closer to self driving cars and yes I might want one one day but not while I can still enjoy driving. But why do you assume that Clutch = Fun? i don't see it that way - the fun of driving for me is progressing down the road at an enjoyable rate, getting the lines right to smooth the curves and maintain the speed - having to stir a stick in the process gets in the way. A recent experience for me that highlights that, is a track day at Palmer Motorsport last year. One of the main goals of the day is to be the fastest or the participants in each of the cars. Near the end of the day our group was in the Clio's. As i got into the car, the instructor asked if i wanted a fast lap time or "a bit of fun" - I opted for the fun option, and with another car with driver and instructor, we basically took part in our own BTCC race. We were driving, we were in control of the car, but the instructors "helped" to make sure we were braking at the last minute, accelerating to the max at the right points, making small adjustments to the steering around the lap so that we were nose to tail, side to side every lap at high speed. It was totally brilliant, a small glimpse into the world of a proper racing driver, and the paddle shift box meant that both cars were on it the whole way through, no missed changes, no fluffs, just racing as hard as we could get away with. Both us drivers got out at the end totally exhilarated and exhausted. Yes, i may have got a faster lap time if i'd done it myself and listened to the instruction, but it would not have been half as much fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstar Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, Mattman42 said: But why do you assume that Clutch = Fun? i don't see it that way - I don't assume it is fun for me as I have tried it and I do find it fun. I also have fun sitting in a pub drinking beer which some people don't understand the same as I will never find running a marathon fun or throwing themselves out of a perfectly serviceable aircraft or tiling the kitchen floor. Fun is an individual thing and I still enjoy changing gear using a stick and a clutch but that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyspyder Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 19 minutes ago, Lennym1984 said: You don't need to be driving fast to rev match your gear changes. I drive within the speed limit on the roads and still H&T the down changes - it just makes for smoother progress and puts less stress on the gearbox/clutch/drivetrain. Rev matching (albeit not "heel and toe" rev matching) is taught as part of the IAM system and it just helps to keep the car balanced. The IAM system is designed to promote smooth, quick and safe driving and is worlds apart from the kind of driving you need on the track (as I found out when I first did a track day!). For those of your who are interested (and yes I realise I sound like I am recruiting for a cult), the IAM lessons and "test" are probably the cheapest way to improve your on road driving skills. I did mine back in 2010 for £130 all in but even now it's only £149 https://www.iamroadsmart.com/courses I'm reasonably certain they will even let automatic owners have a go I did my IAM test in an auto couple years ago, got a first too -... but I have to ask why the hell you heel and toe whilst driving your car on public roads? If you did your IAM you'll be utilising IPSGA, I can't recall if that model includes the need to heel and toe... H&T in a modern car on public roads is like wearing "driving gloves" or painting a 1 cm strip at the 12 O' clock position on your steering wheel to help exit swift roundabout manouvres, a car is a means of transport on public roads, its tranny etc can cope with proper down shifts, in any case if you are driving properly you should seldom need to brake and when you do multiple down shifts are now accepted as good practise so need to change down through all the gears, blipping as you do, simply keep both hands on the wheel, slow, select correct gear and proceed (IPSGA don't for get) - by all means develop a craft but for pity's sake let's not pretend that techniques like H&T are necessary to help a modern car operate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyspyder Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 Heel & Toe! FFS! Chortle!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
½cwt Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 OK so I mentioned H&T first in the thread. It is a technique I learned and I enjoy using it with some knowledge that I'm reducing the revers torque going into my drivetrain. I believe Jackie Stewart noted that the brakes are designed to slow the car down not the engine and gearbox, but he may have been referring to a more fragile 1960/70s F1 car... PDK does it for you, but that's the difference between practising and getting good at a technique, even if not strictly necessary, and it being done for you. I am fan of a manual box but I know I don't use it perfectly which is part of being human rather than a perfect machine doing it all for you and mostly much better too. I have found that now both SWMBO has a DSG car and my daily also has DSG that my manual driving in the Porsche is better because I don't have to re-learn the muscle memory each time I move cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r1flyguy Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Darkstar said: I suppose its a bit like being driven round the Nuremburg ring by the Stig. It would be great fun but you would still ask can I have a go now. A PDK is like having the Stig changing gear for you What a load of old tosh 😂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattman42 Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 22 minutes ago, r1flyguy said: What a load of old tosh 😂 You mean Tosh from Byker Grove? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John T Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 i like a manual, not matter what the vehicle and absolutely love the involvement of getting a gear selection right, to the rev's and speed especially in my Boxster. I'm not saying one is right over the other but I don't want an auto in any disguise thanx 😉 I agree whole heartedly with @r1flyguy Gary, go try one 😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoporsche Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 This “automatic choke” thing is rubbish. It’s far more involving to choose just how rich your fuel air mix is when warming up. And it keeps my hearing well trained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennym1984 Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 2 minutes ago, Menoporsche said: This “automatic choke” thing is rubbish. It’s far more involving to choose just how rich your fuel air mix is when warming up. And it keeps my hearing well trained. Touché! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araf Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 8 hours ago, ½cwt said: Are Mods only allowing us one valid thought, or is there an 's' missing? 🤔 By the power of Greyskull, all posts are now amended to make your post invalid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyspyder Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 6 minutes ago, Menoporsche said: This “automatic choke” thing is rubbish. It’s far more involving to choose just how rich your fuel air mix is when warming up. And it keeps my hearing well trained. hilarious!! On a serious note tho' not all evolutions are such improvements as pdk surely is - I bought my 987.II over the newer lady-car Boxster because I found the electronic PS no different to any other modern dull/clinical car - no peppering in the hand with feedback as enjoyed with mechanical/hydraulic PS. At least I s'pose you can still heel & toe with both automatic chokes and electronic PS, surely it's one thing I DON'T miss with pdk (although my mate who misses his stick shift and clutch has installed an extra left pedal in his auto car so he can enjoy the involvement of a manual. He also has internal windscreen wipers.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araf Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, jonnyspyder said: I bought my 987.II over the newer lady-car Boxster because I found the electronic PS no different to any other modern dull/clinical car - no peppering in the hand with feedback as enjoyed with mechanical/hydraulic PS. I thought I might have done the same but truth be known, I'm not that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobbie Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 19 minutes ago, Menoporsche said: This “automatic choke” thing is rubbish. It’s far more involving to choose just how rich your fuel air mix is when warming up. And it keeps my hearing well trained. It certainly was on the Mk3 Escort, very common fit a new carb with manual choke😉 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonttt Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Menoporsche said: This “automatic choke” thing is rubbish. It’s far more involving to choose just how rich your fuel air mix is when warming up. And it keeps my hearing well trained. To be honest I do miss the days of a sticking carb and having to get out and plunge it by hand to loosen it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonttt Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 4 hours ago, jonnyspyder said: I did my IAM test in an auto couple years ago, got a first too -... but I have to ask why the hell you heel and toe whilst driving your car on public roads? If you did your IAM you'll be utilising IPSGA, I can't recall if that model includes the need to heel and toe... H&T in a modern car on public roads is like wearing "driving gloves" or painting a 1 cm strip at the 12 O' clock position on your steering wheel to help exit swift roundabout manouvres, a car is a means of transport on public roads, its tranny etc can cope with proper down shifts, in any case if you are driving properly you should seldom need to brake and when you do multiple down shifts are now accepted as good practise so need to change down through all the gears, blipping as you do, simply keep both hands on the wheel, slow, select correct gear and proceed (IPSGA don't for get) - by all means develop a craft but for pity's sake let's not pretend that techniques like H&T are necessary to help a modern car operate I’d ask why you are even bothering to drive a “sports” car on the public road ? I drive one to have a bit of fun, which horror even at legal speeds and occasionally a bit faster (but don’t tell anyone)........what really hit me over the last week after only really driving modern autos this summer is how much more fun I had driving a manual without electric steering...all done at legal(ish) speeds....was it harder work....did I need to concentrate more..............all yes.......but that was why it was more fun..........would I have had fun in a PDK....of course.....just not as much 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menoporsche Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 Can’t believe no one has quoted Jasper Carrott and the mother in law, “pulls the choke out, sticks her handbag on it...” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozen Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 I loved my old vinyl and enjoyed cleaning them and dropping the tone arm onto them and the whole turning over business - but really, CD just wiped that out, even for an audiophile like me, and now streaming/itunes/etc wiped that out - things move on, get over it. now I have 60+albums in AAC format in my car on a jukebox/USB that sound fab - what's not to like about that? Electric cars have one gear (taycan has two - the exception) and bucket loads of electronic trickery to manage it all - eventually we're all going to have something like that - like it or not. Manuals were a piece of history years ago, auto's history now, PDK is soon history, and gear lever things will be like cassette tapes are now in 10 years time. Not that I don't like old manual cars, and I have PDKs today and love them all - but they are undeniably 'different' - not worse, not better - but different. But we need realistically to look at manuals as history - fun, engaging, requiring a skill to operate properly - but so did weaving before the industrial revolution - not many weavers around these days are there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TV8 Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 I must try a PDK Porsche or something else with a bit of power. My current daily car has the Volkswagen equivalent but is pretty gutless so the sport modes and flappy paddle stuff seems to only change the noise level. what I do know is that I drove into the office yesterday for the 1st time since Feb or March and the traffic on the way home was terrible. It made me regret taking the 996 which I have been running around in all summer. The last time I hated a journey that much, I ended up selling Boxster which used to be my daily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonnyspyder Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Jonttt said: I’d ask why you are even bothering to drive a “sports” car on the public road ? I drive one to have a bit of fun, which horror even at legal speeds and occasionally a bit faster (but don’t tell anyone)........what really hit me over the last week after only really driving modern autos this summer is how much more fun I had driving a manual without electric steering...all done at legal(ish) speeds....was it harder work....did I need to concentrate more..............all yes.......but that was why it was more fun..........would I have had fun in a PDK....of course.....just not as much 🙂 meh! - Not sure why you would ask why one would want to bother with a sports car on a public road, I was asking why anyone would have to h&t on a public road. The bit I can't get me head round is why folk who have manual cars put so much energy in to persuading others that manuals give that bit more 'fun' or 'involvement' or whatever, just needin to try tooooo hard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Araf Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 12 minutes ago, jonnyspyder said: The bit I can't get me head round is why folk who have manual cars put so much energy in to persuading others that manuals give that bit more 'fun' or 'involvement' or whatever, just needin to try tooooo hard I'm not sure they do. I usually see people with autos trying their hardest to convince people with manuals that autos are just as good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozen Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 23 minutes ago, jonnyspyder said: meh! - Not sure why you would ask why one would want to bother with a sports car on a public road, I was asking why anyone would have to h&t on a public road. The bit I can't get me head round is why folk who have manual cars put so much energy in to persuading others that manuals give that bit more 'fun' or 'involvement' or whatever, just needin to try tooooo hard they sound a bit like vegans these days don't they - trying to convince others of the wisdom of vegan-ness - In the words of Boris, 'Donnez moi un break' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowbos Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, frozen said: they sound a bit like vegans these days don't they - trying to convince others of the wisdom of vegan-ness - In the words of Boris, 'Donnez moi une break' I love PDK and vegetables 😇 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frozen Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 20 minutes ago, rowbos said: I love PDK and vegetables 😇 You're conflicted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iborguk Posted September 9, 2020 Report Share Posted September 9, 2020 Should you buy a Boxster with PDK or a manual gearbox ? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.