What have YOU done to your 986 today ?

[edc]

When I was about 12 and back in HK one of my uncles was a builder and he had a Mitsi or Toyota van. Not quite the same but he would always double declutch and often times heel and toe too. 

[kdh]

22 hours ago, Tony Daniel said:

On a Cayman?? 

Ah no, my son and I have bought a 2004 Boxster 3.2. What a fab car.

[½cwt]

The trick is you are braking and blipping the throttle when heel/toeing, so using all three pedals at the same time.  Double de-clutch doesn't necessarily involve braking as well so only clutch and throttle and some 'boxes require it going up the gears as well as down.

[½cwt]

Put the CabrioShield half cover on whilst the storm passes.  ⛈️

[TV8]

On 10/18/2023 at 10:49 AM, phazed said:

How tall are you guys? I am 6’2” and I don’t have my seat all the way back in my 987. Haven’t driven the 986 yet.

or is this a case of the seatback being reclined with arms outstretched a la Corsa style?

 

The 986 is a bit tighter. Still have not worked out if the difference is totally the seats or there is a bit more space between the dash and the engine cover. Would be fun to try your 987 seats for size in the 986

[TV8]

On 10/18/2023 at 8:40 AM, phazed said:

Well, I wouldn’t say five years. In reality, the only thing that rusts are the chassis!

The spare TVR exhaust set up you kindly stored for me was in a lot better condition than the same mileage and age 986 system I have now. 

[jonogt6]

7 hours ago, bally4563 said:

Explain to me what heel and toe is all about in layman terms, as to why would you need to adopt this style of driving, not taking the p*ss , I truly don’t understand 

I'm totally with you on this...I've never understood it and can't see why anyone would want to do it.

[½cwt]

On 10/19/2023 at 2:31 PM, bally4563 said:

Explain to me what heel and toe is all about in layman terms, as to why would you need to adopt this style of driving, not taking the p*ss , I truly don’t understand 

 

On 10/19/2023 at 9:37 PM, jonogt6 said:

I'm totally with you on this...I've never understood it and can't see why anyone would want to do it.

There are two reasons the technique developed.  Firstly in the earlier years of motoring gearboxes were not synchro meshed and were straight cut and so if the input gear and output gear were not turning at the same speed the gears could just baulk each other and not engage. To over come this when slowing down, i.e. when the input needed to spin faster to mesh with the shorter ratio of the lower gear it was necessary to speed up the input shaft by increasing the revs of the engine to the input and output gear speeds match thus allowing them to engage.

Over time and particularly in competition it was realised this also speeds up the gear change and also reduces the reveres torques in the gearbox and on the crankshaft of the engine so increasing reliability and decreasing clutch wear.  Also, again in competition, a lighter gearbox could be built and a lighter clutch could be used if the designer relied on the driver to match gear speed and thus reducing the forces they needed to endure in the sudden changes of speed when changing gear.  Obviously in competition you want to minimise deceleration distances, so the need to brake and change down gears whilst matching the speed of the internals led to the heel/toe technique.

I was shown how to do it many years ago and enjoy doing it as a discipline and I believe accounts for the fact the I have never had to change a clutch due to wear, and makes for smoother slowing down.  It also help reduce the risk of rear axle locking and so handling instability on down changes in rear drive cars.

Edited October 22, 2023 by ½cwt

[ATM]

If just driving in traffic down shifts are totally unnecessary when braking and just add wear to other components. Better to just wear out your brakes first as they're a simple change when worn out. Unless you need to accelerate again and are in too high a gear, hopefully that's obvious. I think discs on my car will probably go due to rust before usage and no I'm not proud about that.

[½cwt]

1 hour ago, ATM said:

If just driving in traffic down shifts are totally unnecessary when braking and just add wear to other components. Better to just wear out your brakes first as they're a simple change when worn out. Unless you need to accelerate again and are in too high a gear, hopefully that's obvious. I think discs on my car will probably go due to rust before usage and no I'm not proud about that.

Reducing wear on other components in exactly what heel toeing or even just blipping does in down shifts...  The clutch friction plate and flywheel face should meet at zero difference in rotational speed rather than dragging engine up to a higher speed as the frication plate slips and then engages with the flywheel face and also take out all the reverse turning force that process applies.  I am not promoting it as something you should do, just that it has minor benefits.  One learned as a technique it becomes second nature, however it is not a necessary part of modern driving.  I'll ask one question, why to semi-auto 'boxes like DSG and PDK blip themselves?  To get everything turning at the correct speed for the next gear to allow faster, reliable changes.

Low brake wear is a sign of good general driving; you are matching your road speed to conditions (like lifting off when approaching roundabouts and junctions rather than maintaining speed and then braking from that higher speed) and avoiding frequent heavy braking, unless they are rusting out to lack of use.

[eob]

Ah, double de-clutching, rev matching, jumpers for goal posts isn't it.

In the 90s when I got my PSV I trained in an old coach with a crash gearbox. No synchro at all. Was taught techniques like double de-clutching, snatch changes (for downhill starts) and gear floating.

All very satisfying when you got it right. However, one of my first jobs after passing was a footbal crowd and I made a mess of it once or twice to shouts of "Can't find it, grind it" and "Driver, you've left half the gears back there!"

[edc]

I must admit given the old boy age profile on here I presumed most of you would have been doing it

I was never taught but just tried. But it wasn't until I got my first Boxster that it truly worked as most of my previous cars weren't well set up for it. 

[ATM]

2 hours ago, ½cwt said:

Reducing wear on other components in exactly what heel toeing or even just blipping does in down shifts...  The clutch friction plate and flywheel face should meet at zero difference in rotational speed rather than dragging engine up to a higher speed as the frication plate slips and then engages with the flywheel face and also take out all the reverse turning force that process applies.  I am not promoting it as something you should do, just that it has minor benefits.  One learned as a technique it becomes second nature, however it is not a necessary part of modern driving.  I'll ask one question, why to semi-auto 'boxes like DSG and PDK blip themselves?  To get everything turning at the correct speed for the next gear to allow faster, reliable changes.

Low brake wear is a sign of good general driving; you are matching your road speed to conditions (like lifting off when approaching roundabouts and junctions rather than maintaining speed and then braking from that higher speed) and avoiding frequent heavy braking, unless they are rusting out to lack of use.

I had a clutch fail on my first Boxster.  It just broke or fractured where the splines are.  So was working fine then bang dead.  And I am forever worried about 2nd gear crunching or pop out.  So in my view if I dont really need to down shift then I just dont.  But the comment from me was more about coming to a stop.  So braking to stop - you know for traffic lights - rather than eb and flow  If I was in 4th then I'll just go to neutral and let the brakes do the work.

 

Also when the car is cold I try to avoid 2nd altogether and go 1st to 3rd.  I dont know how robust the 986 gearboxes are - suspect some expensive chocolate components inside - but I had to replace one on my first 996 and it hurt - a lot.

 

Yes the PDK does get excited if you brake hard and does some complicated downshifting and rev matching.  More harder braking results in even more excited downshifting.  Again if I know I am stopping and there is no stop watch on me then I knock it into neutral to stop all of that.  Interesting is when you put it back in drive it seems to have the gear ready.  So I suspect it still down shifts but doesn't disengage the clutch.

[ATM]

25 minutes ago, edc said:

I must admit given the old boy age profile on here I presumed most of you would have been doing it

I do feel a bit old when I am around you kids

[Patt]

do you knock your PDK into neutral using the flappy paddles, or physically moving the stick ?

The latter is not good for it.

You could just brake down and even if you are in manual mode the PDK will down shift automatically.  IF you have not come to rest for very long it often pulls away in 2nd , rather than 1st.

[Richard Hamilton]

One of my heroes, with a "Riverdance" of heel & toe and left foot braking. 

 

[999mch]

5 hours ago, ATM said:

f just driving in traffic down shifts are totally unnecessary when braking

In fact my 22 year old daughter was always told to brake and then move to the gear she wanted e.g. 4th to 2nd when she learnt to drive a couple of years back. Never tried double declutching.

[Mattman42]

On 10/18/2023 at 6:50 PM, kdh said:

I’m 5’ 10” and feel squashed without the seat fully back, and I’m a bit older than 18, bro.

Sound-deadening audio pads wrapped around the bar behind the seats seem to have done the trick with the squeaking (but I still have a whine from the passenger seat arf arf)

Never ending job today (and from many other days) was trying to get the black hood free from mould and grime. On the 6th pass now and broke out the Surfex HD and threw away the useless Autoglym canvas roof cleaner/restorer kit. £34 was about £20 too much and simply doesn’t work. I think three more goes should do it but what a pain.

And then Storm Babet rolled in and I called it a day.

Night all.

 

@kdh - had a very dirty roof on my old mini cabrio - i found the autoglym roof cleaner ok, but didn't get the dirt out completely. What did seem to work for me was to give it a good hoover first, then use the coarse sponge in the AG kit to scrub in some Demon Clean APC - it makes a right mess and needs a bit of elbow grease, but got all the green and dirt out of the roof. I then rinsed thoughly with buckets of water before applying the protector. Did the same on the z4 which wasn't quite as bad as the mini and got good results too.

Before:

During:

After:

[ATM]

19 minutes ago, Patt said:

knock your PDK into neutral physically moving the stick 

This

[edc]

7 minutes ago, 999mch said:

In fact my 22 year old daughter was always told to brake and then move to the gear she wanted e.g. 4th to 2nd when she learnt to drive a couple of years back. Never tried double declutching.

I don't think any regular driving instructor since the 70s is going to teach you any other way. Double declutching just isn't needed in modern, basically since at least the late 70s, synchro gearboxes. 

If you have a knackered syncro then it might help. 

[½cwt]

16 minutes ago, edc said:

I don't think any regular driving instructor since the 70s is going to teach you any other way. Double declutching just isn't needed in modern, basically since at least the late 70s, synchro gearboxes. 

If you have a knackered syncro then it might help. 

You would have to teach yourself, or a race instructor would teach you, assuming the race car doesn't have a sequential box with flat shift or down shift blipper.

Re synchros, 2nd gear in a 6 speed Boxster...

Edited October 20, 2023 by ½cwt

[Patt]

16 minutes ago, ATM said:

This

Can't remember where I got the info from, but told it can hurt the box - just like lots of inching forwards in traffic can hurt the clutches.

Personally I don't both with Neutral at all.

[phazed]

A friend of mine bought an 88 inch, 1965 Land Rover. Synchromesh has gone on second. I taught him how to double declutch recently and now he isn’t going to get the gearbox box repaired! One happy educated Land Rover owner!

[ATM]

1 hour ago, Patt said:

Can't remember where I got the info from, but told it can hurt the box - just like lots of inching forwards in traffic can hurt the clutches.

Personally I don't both with Neutral at all.

I've read somewhere that it is bad to do this with full on slushers.  But that's with a torque converter old school box.  If stop start is On then a 981 will sail but I presume this is just clutching while still in gear.  Again I think this will wear the clutch on a normal manual car.  I try to leave it in neutral - a manual car - if waiting at lights rather than pedal pressed down.

[Patt]

Could be old skool slushy autos.

I have my start/stop programmed off 😉

And I too knock into Neutral when in a manual.