My 2011 987 Black Edition

[Jonttt]

I’ve double checked, I must have pressed a little too hard removing / seating the gear stick as the two half where slightly out, I simply ran a trim tool around the gap and its all slotted into place with an even gap all around 😉

[toplad]

Looks good and a great thread 👍

[khushy]

Great looking car

 

i have owned 3 x Z3 M’s (1 x S50 and 2 x S54’s) and travelled over 170,000 miles in them - EPIC fun indeed. 

Had my Spyder since 2011 and 700 miles ..... now just ticked over 118,000 miles and still tight n fast as hell!

 

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by khushy

[Jonttt]

😀 I remember your username from Zroadster.net 

[AdyG]

On 7/31/2019 at 4:05 PM, Jonttt said:

 

@Jonttt Hi,

Regarding the short shift,  have you noticed and difficulty in selecting 1st and 2nd gears from cold? I've read that this can be an issue so curious as I will be upgrading my selector over winter for either the GT3 one or the genuine SSK.

Cheers 

Ady

[Jonttt]

I’ve not noticed any difference, its very positive ie you have to be firm with it but it just slots in like a rifle bolt........to be fair though the temp has not really dropped below 20 degrees since I fitted it so may be different in winter / colder weather ?

I can really see why people say its a must do mod for a manual

[mvw]

13 hours ago, khushy said:

Great looking car

 

i have owned 3 x Z3 M’s (1 x S50 and 2 x S54’s) and travelled over 170,000 miles in them - EPIC fun indeed. 

Had my Spyder since 2011 and 700 miles ..... now just ticked over 118,000 miles and still tight n fast as hell!

 

 

@khushy, love that you are driving the Spyder, I salute you sir!

@Jonttt, great car and great thread.  I'm toying with the idea of a 997.1 (3.6) or a 987.2.  This is edging me towards the Boxster.

[Jonttt]

8 hours ago, mvw said:

@khushy, love that you are driving the Spyder, I salute you sir!

@Jonttt, great car and great thread.  I'm toying with the idea of a 997.1 (3.6) or a 987.2.  This is edging me towards the Boxster.

One of my best mates bought a 997.1 a few years ago, I had no idea until after he bought it. His ambition had always to own a Porsche, it was lovely. However once he found out about the potential engine issues it ruined the experience for him (I did not tell him).....he took out a Harlech plan etc.......but after 6 months he sold the car, he just could not live with the constant fear of the engine going pop.......I get criticised every time I tell that story but the moral is not if the engine will go pop, it is simply the worry that it may. He is OCD and simply could not live with the thought the car was “not right”. It ruined the Porsche experience for him forever. So if a) you need 4 seats, b) you want to scratch the 911 itch, c) you go into it eyes wide open and can just enjoy the car for what it is, then go for the 997.1, great cars ...........but ........... the difference between the gen 2 997/987 and gen 1 is massive, its more than just a facelift and personally even if it was 50:50 911 v boxster I would go .2 over .1 as the deciding factor every day of the week. If you don’t need a) or b) above then the boxster is simply the better buy to me as a drivers car in any case.

Edited August 7, 2019 by Jonttt

[r1flyguy]

9 minutes ago, Jonttt said:

. So if a) you need 4 seats, b) you want to scratch the 911 itch, c) you go into it eyes wide open and can just enjoy the car for what it is, then go for the 997.1,

Preferably the TT with the Metzger engine so you have no worries at all.  

Better still the 997 1.5 😊

[Jonttt]

Ahhh the twin turbo, yes thats one way to get away from the 997.1 engine issues .......but you lose big style on the noise the NA engine is capable of, I grew out of both the faster is better and turbo power urges a long time ago now. I learned that to me how the power can be used in the real world and the sound the engine makes are more important. You could say I have more fun going slower ....but I have more fun which is the point really.

Comparing a 997.1 to a 987.2 is therefore much more of a meaningful comparison. Once you start bringing in FI into the equation you also bring in a whole host of other considerations.

The sound these cars make is such a massive part of the emotive experiences of driving them for fun, you simply cannot ignore the physics that a TT will never sound as good as a great NA Porsche engine 😉

[mvw]

8 minutes ago, Jonttt said:

One of my best mates bought a 997.1 a few years ago, I had no idea until after he bought it. His ambition had always to own a Porsche, it was lovely. However once he found out about the potential engine issues it ruined the experience for him (I did not tell him).....he took out a Harlech plan etc.......but after 6 months he sold the car, he just could not live with the constant fear of the engine going pop.......I get criticised every time I tell that story but the moral is not if the engine will go pop, it is simply the worry that it may. He is OCD and simply could not live with the thought the car was “not right”. It ruined the Porsche experience for him forever. So if a) you need 4 seats, b) you want to scratch the 911 itch, c) you go into it eyes wide open and can just enjoy the car for what it is, then go for the 997.1, great cars ...........but ........... the difference between the gen 2 997/987 and gen 1 is massive, its more than just a facelift and personally even if it was 50:50 911 v boxster I would go .2 over .1 as the deciding factor every day of the week. If you don’t need a) or b) above then the boxster is simply the better buy to me as a drivers car in any case.

I appreciate you taking the time to give your thoughts and I don't want to derail your thread.  I don't need 4 seats, but I would use the car even more if I had them.  I've previously owned a 964 so I've scratched the 911 itch.  I agree that for me, the Boxster is a better car to drive and it's also much better value.  I could live with the engine worries, but even if the 997.1 was rock solid I'm still swaying towards a 987.2.  I think what will probably happen is I'll go 987.2 for a couple of years and then think about 997.2.  By which point my kids will be too big for the +2 seats anyway!!  Anyway, gonna spend a few quid on the 986 tomorrow to see if I can get it to a place where I'm happy to pass it on to someone else and will go from there.

Thanks for the advice, it's much appreciated.

[r1flyguy]

25 minutes ago, Jonttt said:

Ahhh the twin turbo, yes thats one way to get away from the 997.1 engine issues .......but you lose big style on the noise the NA engine is capable of, I grew out of both the faster is better and turbo power urges a long time ago now. I learned that to me how the power can be used in the real world and the sound the engine makes are more important. You could say I have more fun going slower ....but I have more fun which is the point really.

Agree on the sound but then I've learned a long time ago and grew out of the ‘noise of a NA engine is better’ argument as I'm not bothered in anyway shape or form how it sounds as it sounds fine to me  All my motorbikes have road legal cans on too. I see no need attracting more attention, especially the unwanted variety.

To be fair although its your personal opinion and a valid one, I always wanted a 911 turbo, I’m on my second and wouldn't trade in for a Boxster, ever! But for a ‘different’ driving experience I would own another to run alongside the 911 if i had the space. Speed is my fun until I'm too old and reactions slow significantly to no longer have my fun.

As I've said before and always will, the Boxster isn't better than a 911 of comparable vintage, its just a different experience but both equally excellent 

[Jonttt]

Agreed they offer a different kind of driving experience and I fully appreciate those who want / need to scratch a 911 itch. For some its will only be an itch scratched, for others it will lead to a longer term continual desire but the rational that it will be “better” is flawed in so many ways. That’s why the question was an interesting one ie 997.1 v 987.2 as I can see how that would present a real and valid dilemma, hence my taking the trouble to give my thoughts. I agree being fortunate enough to have more than one toy takes the dilemma away which I’m lucky enough to be able to do but for most that is not an option. Personally, as a total ownership package, I have no problem recommending a boxster (or cayman) over a 911 but there are so many factors to consider (even more when you bring NA v FI into the equation) but you have to be made aware of some of those to be able to consider them 😉

If your simply chasing the fastest...well thats a never ending search.......there is always something faster lol

I’m happy with the place I’m at with my hobby sports cars, all the more for “downgrading” from a 981GTS which was perversely a little too good and it never really felt part of me in the way a true hobby car should, I have to put something into a hobby car to get what I want back from it. If you look at my car history over the past 15 years or so its been a steady decline in most people eyes but I’ve never been happier with the cars I have now and the memories of those past (which included some very high horsepower FI super cars )

Edited August 7, 2019 by Jonttt

[Jonttt]

2 hours ago, mvw said:

I appreciate you taking the time to give your thoughts and I don't want to derail your thread.  I don't need 4 seats, but I would use the car even more if I had them.  I've previously owned a 964 so I've scratched the 911 itch.  I agree that for me, the Boxster is a better car to drive and it's also much better value.  I could live with the engine worries, but even if the 997.1 was rock solid I'm still swaying towards a 987.2.  I think what will probably happen is I'll go 987.2 for a couple of years and then think about 997.2.  By which point my kids will be too big for the +2 seats anyway!!  Anyway, gonna spend a few quid on the 986 tomorrow to see if I can get it to a place where I'm happy to pass it on to someone else and will go from there.

Thanks for the advice, it's much appreciated.

Sounds like you have a good appreciation of the consideration but I think the jump you make may more likely be to a 991.1 in a few years time, they are getting closer and closer to 997.2 money and the last of the NA 911’s. If you can get a drive in a 991.1 with power pack and sport exhaust, one of the best sounding water cooled 911’s

ps I don;t mind the diversion as it gives chance to explain why I have a 993 4S and a 987 Black Edition sat on my drive and not a 991 Turbo S , Lamborghini, Ferrari or MacLaren 😉

Edited August 7, 2019 by Jonttt

[r1flyguy]

38 minutes ago, Jonttt said:

 

I’m happy with the place I’m at with my hobby sports cars, all the more for “downgrading” from a 981GTS

 If you look at my car history over the past 15 years or so its been a steady decline

2 flawed quotes 😂 (hope you see I’m jesting with you & keeping the thread active)

981 GTS - never driven one but I’d own one in a heart beat given its pedigree and popularity and more a ‘sideways’ step to something else than a ‘downgrade’

15 years of of technological advances leads me to assume a modern day Boxster will out-perform a 15 year old supercar of some descriptive. So again no decline of yours just a constant of sound decisions 

From a personal POV (sorry to thread drift) I’d love to own a 458. Had a couple of pax laps of the Ring in one & was blown away by it.

I do not posses a long list of cars I want to own/drive, just about 4/5, 2 of those I’d want to test drive properly before I’d even consider chopping in the TTS as the TTS is so accomplished so I totally understand your ‘downgrade’ comments. Think I need to expand upon my downgrade comparison.

TTS circa £150k

GT3 circa £130 fully optioned

GT3RS circa £140 optioned.

Trading in the TTS at a loss for an overs GT3 which to start with costs less when it may in fact not be as accomplishing as the TTS is a downgrade to me, maybe not to you as you are a N/A noise man, I need the handling & performance balance to be right before the noise.

Hope this explains ‘my’ train of thought.

Nonetheless any space on my drive would be taken up by a Boxster, actually any of them, 986/7/81 they are all exceptionally well balanced and performers when they are running & set up well.

Edited August 7, 2019 by r1flyguy

[Jonttt]

Good banter lol

I do agree the perception of the Black Edition being a downgrade from the 981 is flawed, its one others make, not me which is why I put it in quotation marks

You are assuming all of my super cars are now 15 years old ......

The 993 and 987 may be my hobby cars but they are not the only sports cars I have access to 😉

 

And even the ones from years ago can still pack a punch (this was modified and was my daily for 18 months covering >30,000 miles, brand new at the time, sod the warranty lol)

Even then I had an old banger as a hobby car lol......

 

Anyway, enough about my car history, suffice to say its long a varied ..........

Edited August 7, 2019 by Jonttt

[Jonttt]

Back on topic..........I have an afternoon booked in with Wayne Schofield to remap the 987 tomorrow, forecast is good, its a decent run to get there, can;t wait to see what magic he can work on the 987.2 engine. I’ll take plenty of pics and outline the day with him for those interested. If you’ve never had a proper live remap done before by someone who is regarded as the go to man for Porsche race teams ......its an interesting day to say the least .......

[r1flyguy]

16 minutes ago, Jonttt said:

 

You are assuming all of my super cars are now 15 years old ......

I never assume as it can make an ‘ass’ out of ‘u’ and ‘me’  😂

Look forward to the map updates. Be interesting to see the before & after results.

You planning to fettle with the geo/tyres to make use of the total package? Im having Cup2’s fitted next week (mileage is not the issue so tyre wear is negligible)

Just wondering what route your going unless already explained in this thread somewhere

[rowbos]

22 minutes ago, Jonttt said:

Back on topic..........I have an afternoon booked in with Wayne Schofield to remap the 987 tomorrow, forecast is good, its a decent run to get there, can;t wait to see what magic he can work on the 987.2 engine. I’ll take plenty of pics and outline the day with him for those interested. If you’ve never had a proper live remap done before by someone who is regarded as the go to man for Porsche race teams ......its an interesting day to say the least .......

Looking forward to seeing the process and results from your remap day - in your usual detailed fashion Jon 😎

 

[Jonttt]

2 hours ago, r1flyguy said:

I never assume as it can make an ‘ass’ out of ‘u’ and ‘me’  😂

Look forward to the map updates. Be interesting to see the before & after results.

You planning to fettle with the geo/tyres to make use of the total package? Im having Cup2’s fitted next week (mileage is not the issue so tyre wear is negligible)

Just wondering what route your going unless already explained in this thread somewhere

The car has pretty new N rated tyres on and I have no reason to think of changing them until they need to be. I’m playing around with the DSC programming software which is great fun. The default is 997 and setup in the USA and whilst the Sport mode is much better for road use than OEM sport the normal mode less so. I’m close to getting a balance I’m happy with for road use in both modes. I’ll post more up about it and the use of the programming software when I finished but its great for a home user to have access to PASM settings by mode.

Otherwise I’m pretty happy with the cars setup for my use on road so far so after the remap plans are a few cosmetics jobs and just enjoy the car for the rest of the summer.

I’ll look to do some more mechanical jobs myself next year to keep the tinkering going.

[Jonttt]

So I had the car booked in with Wayne Schofiled of Chipwizards fame yesturday.........

The recap is going to be quicker than I thought .......

....... bottom line is there was nothing Wayne could add to the mapping of the car.......he explained that the only way to get more power out of mapping would be to compromise the safety parameters Porsche have built into the default mapping eg risk to catalytic convertor by running fuel mixtures outside of safety parameters with a higher risk the cat will fail which can lead to catastrohic engine failure (if the cat disintegrates back into the engine) etc..... which others may be prepared to do but he would not, in his view its simply not worth the risk.
In terms of power delivery he could not improve on the OEM map.......now given this guy is the go to guy for all Porsche race teams he knows a little of what he is talking about having actually experienced every scenario and consequence you can think of with these cars.......so we decided to leave it as is.......short of hardware changes the car is running optimally out of the box.......

.........the car has effectively had a health check, wayne is crediting me for the hours not used on the remap  :thumb: 

So if I've learned one thing its that a 997.2 / 987.2 engine is not worth remapping unless you have changed hardware from OEM spec and if you do have it remapped be very careful that whoever does it is not just after a quick buck for a quick gain by compromising fuel / air mixture safety parameters for the cat 😉

[Patt]

If he is that experienced, he would have told you that from the start, ie before taking your time and money !

I've also have no idea how a honey comb of silicone carbide and metallic coatings can explode if the heat changes a few degrees let, alone then them move against the flow of the exhaust to the engine.  I'm happy to be proved wrong, but that makes no sense to me at all.

And yes the AFR is very important for tuning, and yes you have a clean bill of health - the latter could have been done at any rolling road. However I seriously doubt that a mass produced road car is at "optimum" tune.  Manufactures have to allow for low grade fuels and un-serviced cars as well as very varied climate conditions. 

After your reported feedback, he certainly wouldn't be my go to for a Porsche map.

[Jonttt]

Thats your loss lol, not the porsche world in general who continue to benefit from waynes R&D with most of the race teams in the UK and europe.

You don't understand the basics of gas flow in a modern engine to meet emissions standards then.................in simple terms if you mess around with fuel mixtures to "get a better dyno map" you have to run the fuel mixture leaner or richer. The amount of oxygen in the mixture affects not only power but temperature. There are safety parameters built into direct fuel injections engines (which the 997.2 3.4 has) which are there to control the mixture as much to control exhaust temperature as power. Catalytic convertors are very sensitive to temperature, too hot or too cold and exhaust gases are not broken down properly and this can cause the catalyst to clog (with a viscious circle of mis reads by control sensors then giving wrong fueling demands) or break down themselves. Thats one issue buts its compounded by the way modern engines then "scavenge" exhaust gases (exhaust gases have les oxygen in them and so are used as part of the fuel / air mix where reduced oxygen is needed to meet emmisions). The proplem with that is if the catalyst substrate is broken into small pieces it can get sucked into the combustioin chamber with catastrophic failure....very very quickly and without warning. That is why you have to be very very carefull with DFI engines that you actually know a) what you are doing and b) the consequences ........thats why I use the best man for the job and not someone who just out to make a quick buck ..............😉

In Waynes view these engines are optimised for the hardware that they are made with. You could fit better injectors (which can control the fuel / air mixture with more accuracy), you can remove the cats (but fail an MOT), you can change the manifolds, you can do lots of things to shift / remove the safety parameters but my car does not have that and in his view, which I fully accept, it is simply not worth changing the default maps on these cars unless you are prepared to respec them with different hardware.

Re "he should have told me before I booked" was not Waynes fault. I was so busy I just booked the car in on his new online booking portal and did not speak to him beforehand (he is a hard guy to get hold of as he is that busy).....as soon as I arrived he told me there was not much he could do other than check the car out. He has refunded me already, a proper, decent, no nonsense chap, if only all businesses where the same....... 

I still had a great few hours there, he had just finished mapping a rather nice C2 outlaw which the owner has spent a fortune on and the engine map was one of the final stages of its build. There is always some really interesting metal being worked on by Wayne.

Edited August 9, 2019 by Jonttt

[TV8]

@Jonttt I am with your man re mapping. Its a subject I have followed a while with my toy car and if there were gains to be had on such a volume car, it would available by model, not requiring a remap. I am thinking of examples of cars with the same engine at different stages of tune. The rolling road can help establish if you have all that you should have and if that is the case, leave well alone. 

The person who remapped my Chim charged £250 and had the car for a week to try it in as many scenarios as possible. He remaps lots of other TVRs/ECU Systems but I was his 1st customer on the 14CUX and remapping is only required when you change a few things or in my case, a lot of things!

[Patt]

thank you for your update.  You are totally correct; I do not understand DFI engines as I stopped looking for significant power gains some years ago after my "turbo era" I enjoy modifying but I just do not want to justify some the the expenses these days.  Sure I'd like to optimise the map and often there is enough of a flat spot WOT that just tidying that up improves the overall drive.

And please accept my apologies regarding your booking, it did not read that way and I guess I also jumped to conclusions that when you book you would at least have to advise  at the very least what car you you booking in.